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Unloading Claim Rejected
h3lp
post Tue, 28 May 2019 - 07:24
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Hi All,

One of our vans got ticketed whilst unloading on non-restricted double yellow lines.

We appealed with supporting evidence but this got rejected because the van was near a junction.

Can anyone see anything incorrect about the council's letter before we pay?

Cheers.

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post Tue, 28 May 2019 - 07:24
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h3lp
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 06:43
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Thank you hcandersen,

there were two letters - one sent from the lease company to the council, and one from the lease company to the keeper...

both below thank you again.





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hcandersen
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 08:01
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You do NOTHING because there is nothing for you to do.(Far from their letter authorising YOU, it authorises the council(?))

Letter 2 dated 18 July headed Dear Customer tells you they have given details to the council for them to transfer liability to you.


You do NOTHING until you receive a NTO in YOUR name.

In the spirit of a customer wishing to provide their lease company with the highest level of service ( biggrin.gif ) write back, thank them for dealing with the matter quickly and say that you will keep the copy NTO for information and await a NTO in your name. In the meantime, would they please confirm that their letter to Plymouth ... dated 18 July which was copied to you is their submission to that authority to transfer liability.
(I won't go in to why the last part is important just yet because you do not have a NTO).

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 09:01
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cp8759
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 15:47
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Sorry to have to call you out on this hcandersen, but your advice on this occasion is dangerous. If the OP acts on your advice, there are only two possible outcomes:

1) The lease company will pay the PCN and seek to recover the money from the OP, or
2) The council won't receive any representations and will, in due course, issue a charge certificate (which the lease company will no doubt re-charge to the OP).

Trying to be a smart-arse and writing to the lease company on the basis that they should know what they're doing will achieve nothing if, as in this case, the person at the other end doesn't know what they're doing. Furthermore, while it's badly written the intent of the letter addressed to the council is clear, the lease company want the council to communicate with the nominated person. The letter also helpfully confirms that the nominated person has the full use of the vehicle.

h3lp, you need to respond to the Notice to Owner using the "not the owner" ground, and naming yourself as the owner. Also include a copy of the letter from the lease company to the council. This should result in the NtO being cancelled and a new NtO being issued in your name.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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h3lp
post Fri, 26 Jul 2019 - 10:35
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OK thanks for the input.

The letter from lease company says we should now make our appeal directly to the council (with their letter of authority accompanying it)?

Can I get clarification on what our next action should be?

Cheers.

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 26 Jul 2019 - 12:00
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QUOTE (h3lp @ Fri, 26 Jul 2019 - 11:35) *
OK thanks for the input.

The letter from lease company says we should now make our appeal directly to the council (with their letter of authority accompanying it)?

Can I get clarification on what our next action should be?

Cheers.



So you have authority to make representations on behalf of the lease co (NOT IN YOUR OWN RIGHT) and the council will respond to the lease company, what then?


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hcandersen
post Fri, 26 Jul 2019 - 21:31
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@cp ??

You misgivings are way out:
) The lease company will pay the PCN and seek to recover the money from the OP, or
2) The council won't receive any representations and will, in due course, issue a charge certificate (which the lease company will no doubt re-charge to the OP).


The die has already been cast; the lease company have written to the council and the OP. The OP is merely acknowledging receipt and confirming the meaning and purpose of the letter to the authority.

You seem to have a problem with the straightforward and this action is exactly that, the response of a genuine person who received the two letters.

I have revised my view. It is ESSENTIAL that the OP writes to the lease company.

You seem to forget that if the OP does nothing then the council may indeed ignore the letter from the company and issue a CC. IMO the ONLY way of averting this is to write to the lease company because we know that the details in that letter do not comply with the mandatory elements required to transfer liability, contrary to your thoughts that all that's required is a clear intent to transfer liability - since when did this become the regulatory standard? Therefore BY DEFAULT the OP could be taken out of the enforcement process and find themselves lumbered in the contractual one.

Only the OP can avert this possible outcome and they can't do it by sitting on their hands.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 - 21:36
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cp8759
post Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 17:02
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 26 Jul 2019 - 22:31) *
The die has already been cast; the lease company have written to the council and the OP.

No, the lease company has done no such thing.

The lease company has simply notified the OP of the penalty, and it has provided a letter addressed to the enforcement authority, which the OP can use as a Letter of Authority when he writes to the council, should he chose to challenge the penalty.

If there were any doubt that the lease company might have actually sent the third party authorisation letter to the council, any such doubt is dispelled by the letter to the OP clearly stating in relation to the Letter of Authority "You will need to send this with your appeal".

I stand by my advice in post 43, the OP needs to write to the council so he can get a new NtO issued to himself.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 17:04


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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h3lp
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 05:53
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i need to do something about this one - is there a tribunal service on this forum to decide which of you is right? biggrin.gif
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hcandersen
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 08:46
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The first of the two posted letters seems clear: it is addressed to Plymouth City Council and it is signed by LeasePlan. There is nothing to suggest this has not been sent to the council. And here is the problem: it is unclear. You think it's been sent to the OP, I don't. But whichever, the OP must find out or possibly lose by default.

I suggested he started with LeasePlan for the very obvious reason that the ball is in their court. They could phone them, in fact this might be preferable. All they need to establish is exactly what LeasePlan have sent to the council e.g. only the letter dated 18th, nothing! It's simple fact finding and should be dealt with as such i.e. no 'overtones'. And once they and we know, then we can advise.

For example, if only the letter then we know that this does not comply with the regs as regards transferring liability, but the OP doesn't want to split hairs on this point at the moment, what they want is a NTO in their name. So, do the authority intend to accept this, what else might they need, could the OP assist etc?

But I think this must start with LeasePlan with a light touch.
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cp8759
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 12:42
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QUOTE (h3lp @ Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 06:53) *
i need to do something about this one - is there a tribunal service on this forum to decide which of you is right? biggrin.gif

You could just call the lease company, and ask them to confirm which of the following is correct:

1) The letter addressed to the council has only been sent to you, and their intention is that if you want to challenge the penalty, you should send this letter to the council, or

2) The lease company has already sent the letter of authority to the council.

IMO the only logical conclusion is 1, but it should only take a 30 second phone call to find out.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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h3lp
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 16:18
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hi chaps, i emailed the lease company asking for clarification on the letter of authority but haven't had a reply.

not sure what i should do next?
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disgrunt
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 16:34
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Phone them?
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 16:42
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What is the last letter from the council Post it here and leave in ALL dates Time is getting short.


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cp8759
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 17:06
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Don't lose track of the fact that if you don't make a representation by 14 August, all appeal rights could be lost and the council can impose a 50% surcharge. Personally I wouldn't mess around and I would just make a representation against the Notice to Owner, including the Letter of Authority. There is nothing to be gained in waiting IMO.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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h3lp
post Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 11:16
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guys im genuinely not being lazy here, im just doing all this as a favour to a friend but I want to make sure that my NTO reply gives us the best possible chance of victory.

Can someone tell me verbatim what I should write in the NTO reply - should i just repeat what we've already said or does there need to be additional info included?
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hcandersen
post Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 13:44
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OP, can we just review where we are pl.

You are doing this for a friend;
They received a PCN and made an unsuccessful challenge;
A NTO whose date we do not know was sent to the registered keeper who is a leasing company;
They wrote (on 18 July) to the council authorising the council to 'communicate directly with the nominated person[whose details were included]'
We assume the 'nominated person' was your friend.
On the same date they wrote - presumably to the 'nominated person' - stating that 'we have given your details to the authority ..transferring liability to you'
Unfortunately, the 'nominated person's' details in their letter to the authority do NOT contain the mandatory regulatory details for transferring liability.


It is now 7 Aug. and we have no idea what the council are doing/have done.

The OP finally contacted the lease company(but when we do not know when or whether in their or the 'nominated person's name!), but has not had a reply. Maybe if the OP is not the nominated person, then the lease company won't correspond with them. (OP, there are such niceties as data protection rules)

You must find out whether a NTO has been issued by the council, or more accurately, the 'nominated person' must find out because you (OP) have no standing in this matter.

OP, if you are not the 'nominated person' then this is likely to get out of hand, assuming it hasn't already.

I do not see that reps can be made until 14 August as we do not know the date of the lease company's NTO.



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cp8759
post Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 15:53
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Well regardless of what hcandersen might think, we clearly know the NtO is dated 16 July, so the deadline for reps is 14 August. Get the nominated person to send something along the lines of the draft below and include the job sheet, as well as the letter from LeasePlan UK Ltd to the council:

--------

Dear Sir or Madam,

I submit a formal representation against the Notice to Owner on behalf of the registered keeper, I enclose their written authority confirming I am able to make representations on their behalf. I submit that the alleged contravention did not occur, because at the time when my vehicle was observed I was loading (insert description of stuff being unloaded), I enclose a job sheet confirming the same.

The items had to be taken from the van to (insert explanation of where the stuff was being taken, say whether there were any gates / stairs involved etc) and the unloading activity was continuous and uninterrupted.

It is understandable why the CEO issued the PCN, but in light of this information I trust the penalty will now be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Nominated Person


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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h3lp
post Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 07:38
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Thank you so much I will update again they reject smile.gif
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hcandersen
post Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 08:15
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Well regardless of what hcandersen might think, we clearly know the NtO is dated 16 July,


If it's been posted, then fine. Which post?

So instead of contacting the council to find out the actual position, the OP or whoever is going to make reps against someone else's NTO on the flimsiest of bases, namely the letter from the lease company to the council which does not explicitly or IMO implicity authorise the nominated to person to do anything AND the lease company's letter to the nominated person that they have written to the council to TRANSFER liability. And this despite having the best part of a fortnight to simply contact the council to find out the situation. One minute we're waiting for a NTO in the nominated person's name, then we're not, and all because no contact has been made with the council.

OP, you seem happy to accept this advice - on someone else's behalf? - without answering any of the questions posed. Good luck.

PS: don't send the lease company's letter to you/nominated person to the council because if anything this would tell the council that you/they are NOT authorised but that, as the letter states very clearly, the company's intent is that liability should be transferred to the addressee in which case how the hell can you or anyone make reps??

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 09:02
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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 17:36
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 09:15) *
Well regardless of what hcandersen might think, we clearly know the NtO is dated 16 July,


If it's been posted, then fine. Which post?

33

QUOTE (h3lp @ Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 08:38) *
Thank you so much I will update again they reject smile.gif

Don't forget the nominated person must keep on the lease company's back, if the council reject you don't want the lease company to panic and pay the penalty, as you then lose the opportunity to appeal further. It might be an idea to pre-emotively inform them that if the council reject the nominated person intends to appeal to the tribunal, and make sure they're on board with this.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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