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Torquay Marina - That old chestnut, Maybe a new way to be stupid though? :)
MyNameIsNotImpor...
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 14:44
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Afternoon all,
I've only discovered these forums today but have done some searching and seen a lot of results featuring the infamous Torquay Marina car park.
I've had the misfortune to arrive back from my holiday to a PCN from them.

I believe I understand where the drivers mistake happened now after a reddit thread but they drove up to the site and saw the big signs saying "Pay on exit" fine, work it out when they get back to the car. Got back to the car and realised there was no barrier and they'd not been given a ticket when they got onto site (I've not seen ones like that in any other car park so far but then I've barely been out in the last 18 months heh)

When the driver got back to the car they saw people paying so figured they'd better do the same, ringgo app (That they'd used all around the county) pick up a session for the duration they think they've been there (they can only guess at this point as they didn't think it was their responsibility to note it down?) Think they've done the right thing but it feels weird as they've got a session now that they've just left early.

Get back home to a PCN from Premier Park. DOH!
OK So it seems that if they had got back to my car and used the physical machine then it'd have known when they entered and charged them appropriately?
Their mistake was using the supported app which works in a different way but not mentioned on the BIG signs as they enter but they did see one only after exiting the site by the road that mentioned if paying by mobile then pay on arrival (they didn't see it until after they left the car park as it was on the car exit not the pedestrian one used to leave the car park in the first place) They imagine if they looked around they might've found others but they'd got the big instructions in my head.


Google Streetview of signs they saw

I now see where the driver went wrong but feel frustrated and misled by the signs going in, is it worth pursing this or do I just pay it as an ignorance fee?

This post has been edited by MyNameIsNotImportant: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:19
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post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 14:44
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Jlc
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:02
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So the app gets the driver to 'guess' how long they've stayed but they didn't pay enough?

Can you post up a redacted copy of the PCN received?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:03


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:04
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First edit that post, you have the notice as the keeper and respond appriately, describe what 'the driver' did without giving away their relationship to the keeper.

As there are Byelaws in place there can be no keeper liability on that site, so they would have to deal with the unknown to them driver!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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MyNameIsNotImpor...
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:13
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 16:02) *
So the app gets the driver to 'guess' how long they've stayed but they didn't pay enough?

Can you post up a redacted copy of the PCN received?

No, that was their mistake by confusing the "pay on arrival if you want to use the app" with the "pay as you leave if you use our ticket machine" that worked in a way they hadn't experienced as yet.

Annoying that two incompatible methods are in operation and it isn't clear. they'd not seen pay on exit that didn't give you a ticket/token (but working in tech I now see why that wouldn't be necessary but They shouldn't have to figure that out on the fly at the time!)

This post has been edited by MyNameIsNotImportant: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:29
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The Rookie
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:14
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So now you need to edit both posts please.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:27
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Ah, I see... That is confusing but no doubt written in some small print no one notices.

Post the PCN...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MyNameIsNotImpor...
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:41
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 16:14) *
So now you need to edit both posts please.

Oops I think I've relayed the story as it happened now.

Which bits need redacting for sensible posting?
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DWMB2
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 15:44
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Redact any personal info (name/address/reg plate) - leave on dates and times. And show us all of the PCN, including the back if it's two sided. You'll need to use a third party site like https://imgur.com/ to upload.


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MyNameIsNotImpor...
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 16:11
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Got them posted for me:





This post has been edited by MyNameIsNotImportant: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 16:20
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DWMB2
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 16:14
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Worth removing that reference number - just to avoid potential mis-use


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MyNameIsNotImpor...
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 16:21
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QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 17:14) *
Worth removing that reference number - just to avoid potential mis-use

Knew I'd screw something up, good catch.
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Jlc
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 18:26
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Says 'Whole period of parking not paid for'. What period is shown on the app receipt?

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 16:04) *
As there are Byelaws in place there can be no keeper liability on that site, so they would have to deal with the unknown to them driver!

They seem to think otherwise...?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 19:26
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There are byelaws for this site so no POFA liability possible
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MyNameIsNotImpor...
post Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 14:07
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 19:26) *
Says 'Whole period of parking not paid for'. What period is shown on the app receipt?

15:35-16:05 (They guessed it'd been 30 mins) wouldn't have made a difference if They'd opted for the hour though as it was still the wrong start time.
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Jlc
post Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 14:50
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Ok, it’s true it doesn’t cover the period parked but the amount paid does meet the tariff.

They’ll reject all day long but the point should be made that the tariff was paid and the charge is unreasonable. A judge could accept this argument but strictly the signage may well and try and stuff the motorist with a technicality. (Note the big sign saying pay on exit)

I suspect many are caught out by this and there’s no incentive to fix it…

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 14:51


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 10:01
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 19:26) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 16:04) *
As there are Byelaws in place there can be no keeper liability on that site, so they would have to deal with the unknown to them driver!

They seem to think otherwise...?

It had better be a reasonably held belief or that NtK amounts to an attempted fraud.

One for the OP to report to trading standards and action fraud I'd suggest.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 13:16
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 11:01) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 19:26) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 16:04) *
As there are Byelaws in place there can be no keeper liability on that site, so they would have to deal with the unknown to them driver!

They seem to think otherwise...?

It had better be a reasonably held belief or that NtK amounts to an attempted fraud.

One for the OP to report to trading standards and action fraud I'd suggest.

Here's the council's response:

“The land is leased by the local authority.

The local authority can find no evidence to say that the tenant cannot provide (and control) parking on their leased land. We can also find no evidence to say that the land upon which the car park was erected comes within the Torbay Harbour Estate or is subject to the Harbour Bye-laws (and any alleged statutory control), despite its proximity to the inner harbour”


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 20 Oct 2021 - 16:48
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Intersecting, the byelaws specifically mention the car parks within the harbour estate.

Being leased by the local authority would be irrelevant if the same authority was the landlord for any or all of the harbour estate.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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MyNameIsNotImpor...
post Sun, 24 Oct 2021 - 13:07
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There seems to be some discussion back and forth that I don't understand at this point, are they best appealing it (pretty much assuring they'll decline it?) what basis are they best appealing?
and what would happen from there?

Had a mild panic as I thought the 14 days was up in 35 minutes but it is 14 days from issue date at least so they've got a few days to decide on what to do.

Thanks for all the assistance BTW, it really is appreciated.
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ostell
post Sun, 24 Oct 2021 - 14:05
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Have a look at other Torquay marina threads and see what happened there
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