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HELP PCN from Flashpark
Sam_Genie
post Sun, 17 Oct 2021 - 22:50
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Hi,

Would someone be able to assist with the attached PCN Driver received whilst visiting Tool station in Putney. Driver went back to them & showed them the transaction for the date / time in question but as it turns out the parking is their neighbors & nothing to do with them. Driver personally thinks the signage is misleading see attached. Please advise what is the best steps to take as RK only has days for the 28 day. PCN was issued to RK whom is a company in company name.

https://i.postimg.cc/8C4wqbJK/PCN-Front.png

https://i.postimg.cc/7P58n5j8/PCN-Back.png

https://i.postimg.cc/nhY6hB97/Sign.png

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Signage attached does not state whom the landlord or agents are (still not sure if its 121 / 123) so unfortunately Driver assumed it was Tool stations private parking see here

https://goo.gl/maps/ukw6yk1K9bFTUYf19

as the parking is on the corner of the Tool Station & the car next to Driver did the exact same thing sad.gif

This post has been edited by Sam_Genie: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 - 23:09
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post Sun, 17 Oct 2021 - 22:50
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Fluffykins
post Sun, 17 Oct 2021 - 23:03
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Edit your post straight away.

It's the PCN The Driver received whilst visiting Tool station in Putney. The Driver went back.....

Go through the whole post and check the identity of the driver is neither stated nor inferred. There's at least two more places.

You are dealing with this. You do so as The Keeper and you tell what The Driver says he/she did, saw, thought etc

This post has been edited by Fluffykins: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 - 23:05
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Sam_Genie
post Sun, 17 Oct 2021 - 23:24
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Would the RK need to appeal within the 28 days window & / or can the RK claim No keeper Liability? Apologies but this is all abit of a minefield just trying to understand what NTK & POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is & if it would apply here.

This post has been edited by Sam_Genie: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 07:30
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The Rookie
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 06:57
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PoFA - Protection of Freedoms Act (2012) - banned private clamping but in exchange the keeper of the car can be held liable for the parking charge (note this is a civil matter, the driver entered any contract to pay so normally a stranger to the contract - the keeper - cannot be liable). But the parking companies have toi meet certain criteria and most routinely fail.

NKL - do you mean NtK - Notice to keeper - the Notice, erm, sent to the keeper!

Flashpark are in the BPA (one of two approved trade associations) which means POPLA is available so yes the keeper appeals within 28 days or POPLA will no longer be available.


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Sam_Genie
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 07:32
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Thanks for clarifying, on what basis would Keeper appeal? Does Keeper need to give driver details?
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 08:07
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No, why would the keepe have to give driver details? It would be pointless us telling you to hide the driver details if you just had to say them anyway!

Appeal basis is obviously - ambiguous signage not saying which parking spots are which

Go get far, far better pictures so it can be seen, as you WILL NEED THEM FOR POPLA.
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The D Team
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 08:10
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you don't need to give driver details, unless you want them to pursue the driver not the keeper. It's easier for the keeper to defend, so it's likely better NOT to mention who the driver was at all.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 08:23
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Your decision, the keeper has more protection than the driver, but if driver details are provided then there is no longer any claim against the keeper and the driver will have to defend the claim.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Sam_Genie
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 08:24
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Ok so something on the basis that the signage is ambiguous, does not specify if it is for Tool Station parking or not. Am I appealing appealing on behalf of the driver or simply appealing? is there any standard appeal template that I can use / look at if possible?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 08:39
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Well the best appeal point is always PoFA, I havn't had time to go through it yet.

Second is that the NtK gives no basis for a contractual claim, how can a driver contract to pay a sum for parking somewhere when it is 'permitted parking only'. the signage is also 'forbidding' by stating that parking is for authorised users ONLY.

Then you can use visibility of signage (compare to the BPA CoP requirements).

Once you've written it, post for critique.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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ostell
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 18:48
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Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give the invitation to keeper in the format prescribed by section 9 (2) (e) of the Act. Nor have you correctly given the warning of keeper liability required by 9 (2) (f) of the same Act

You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc


What's the dates? You've redacted all
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Sam_Genie
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 20:00
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Awesome icon_thumleft.gif

Contravention date 25/9/21
Date of Notice 28/9/21

Also I am moving address this week should I provide them the new address for correspondence or not bother?

This post has been edited by Sam_Genie: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 20:05
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The Rookie
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 20:16
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Yes, otherwise you risk not getting the rejection with your POPLA code……


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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ostell
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 20:29
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You must tell them your new address for service(call it that) so that you don't get a CCJ against you without your knowledge.

Get a free certificate of posting from a post office so that if there are problems you xan show you told them
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Sam_Genie
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 22:24
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 19:48) *
Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give the invitation to keeper in the format prescribed by section 9 (2) (e) of the Act. Nor have you correctly given the warning of keeper liability required by 9 (2) (f) of the same Act

You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc


So I send the above on day 27 (Date of notice was 28/9 so 25/10) getting a certificate of posting & should I mention also:

Second is that the NtK gives no basis for a contractual claim, how can a driver contract to pay a sum for parking somewhere when it is 'permitted parking only'. the signage is also 'forbidding' by stating that parking is for authorised users ONLY.

Also visibility of signage (compare to the BPA CoP requirements).

or should I keep that for POPLA

This post has been edited by Sam_Genie: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 22:30
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DWMB2
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 22:45
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Nobody has suggested waiting until day 27. You might be getting confused with windscreen tickets, where it is often advised to send your appeal such that it arrives on day 26. That advice doesn't apply where there has been a notice to keeper through the post, so no advantage in delaying.

Worth remembering that first class post is assumed delivered 2 working days after posting, so if you did send on day 27, it would be received on day 29, after Flashpark's deadline for appeals.


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Sam_Genie
post Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 20:25
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Ok so appeal as per Ostell's kind template & keep reasons as per Rookies' post for Popla. Also just received this now so will appeal asap via post

https://postimg.cc/yWsF653q

This post has been edited by Sam_Genie: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 20:29
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DWMB2
post Tue, 19 Oct 2021 - 22:01
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Get the appeal sent asap.

I note that their 'final notice' claims that you have now 'lost your right to appeal' - this is not true, as their original PCN said you had 28 days to appeal. This also goes against 23.7 of the BPA Code of Practice - bear this in mind if they reject your appeal on the basis of it being sent too late and complain to the BPA if they do.


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Sam_Genie
post Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 11:29
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Appeal sent & just received standard rejection letter with Popla code. Any help with the appeal please? Should i state incorrect deceiving sign as you can see in my first post & google maps the sign itself does not state whom the landlords are & there is a huge Toolstation entrance right next to it so one would assume it was their parking, else what basis for appeal.
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DWMB2
post Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 11:39
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As a starting point have a look on here and the MSE Parking Forum for recent examples of POPLA appeals (make sure they're recent, an appeal from 10 years ago is unlikely to contain much helpful info) to give you an idea of how to structure it.

You want to challenge the signage, mention the POFA fails, and challenge landowner authority (ie do they have a contract in place with the owners of the land). If you draft something up we can offer feedback.


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