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Private Parking Fine - Aldi Car Park - Newbury Park Ilford
rsg444
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 10:13
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Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone can help. A family member received a parking fine through the post for parking at the Aldi/B&M/Pets at Home Car Park on Horns Road in Ilford.

According to the letter they stayed there for 19 minutes over the 2 hour limit. As the family member is disabled and holds a blue badge and also parked in a designated bay, it takes them a while to walk around and as they visited all three stores and waited in large queues in Aldi and B&M it pushed them over the 2 hour limit.

Is there any grounds to appeal this - any help would be much appreciated.

I looked up a similar thread but it appears the appeal process used an older version of the BPA Code of Practice which no longer seem to apply.

Many thanks.

R
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post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 10:13
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 09:11
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Is there anything stating "parking see terms and conditions" or similar?
Because that photo isn't of much help to see what it looks like
- from the drivers POV
- what the sign actually says

You know there must be a sign talking about parking on the way in as it's in the code of practice.
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rsg444
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 09:59
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So this is the sign closest to the entrance:

https://ibb.co/dKfVpn9

This post has been edited by rsg444: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 10:22
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 10:10
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STOP.... You were asked about a sign on the way (driving) into a car park (aka 'entry signage'), Yes or no there is one?

Your photo gives no context at all and 'closest to the entrance' is less useful than a chocolate tea pot, but seems to show it as this entry signage?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.574835,0....6384!8i8192


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rsg444
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 10:26
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Ok, to be clear there is a sign by the entrance but it (in my opinion) is not really visible from the entrance, hence me saying "closest to the entrance". But this is the only sign that is being referred to as the entrance sign:


https://ibb.co/dKfVpn9

to give context as to where this sign is placed, the following picture should help which was taken from the entrance to the car park.

https://ibb.co/7Xyw9fC

This post has been edited by rsg444: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 10:29
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 10:52
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My Google maps link shows it as fairly obvious to me, unless it's changed since March?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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rsg444
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 11:15
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The only change is the tree growth that doesn't make it as obvious..however if the consensus is the sign is ok this is what I'm thinking of in terms of appeal which I'm hoping to submit today:

Dear Premier Park,

Re: Premier Park Ltd PCN Ref

I appeal on the following grounds as registered keeper of the vehicle:

1. Equality Act
The Equality Act 2010 says that providers of services to the public must make ‘reasonable adjustments’ to remove barriers which may discriminate against disabled people. It goes on to say "The first requirement is a requirement, where a provision, criterion or practice of A's puts a disabled person at a substantial disadvantage in relation to a relevant matter in comparison with persons who are not disabled, to take such steps as it is reasonable to have to take to avoid the disadvantage."

As one of the people in the vehicle on that day is a registered blue badge holder, and the fact the vehicle was parked within a Disabled Bay with a clearly displayed valid blue badge, the 2 hour parking provision put the said person at a substantial disadvantage in relation to able bodied users. The person's mobility issues results in them taking longer to exit the vehicle, longer to walk to the three stores in the retail park and complete their shopping activities including the unloading of shopping and then re-entering the vehicle to exit the car park.

Subjecting such a person to the same 2 hour provision that an able body user of the car parks receives is clearly a disadvantage to the blue badge holder and is evidence that you have made no reasonable adjustments as required by the legislation in the Equality Act to prevent any disadvantage to the blue badge holder.

Furthermore, as a parking event occurred, the BPA Code of Practice states that a minimum of 10 minutes grace period should be applied - this grace period is to be applied for users of the car park including able bodies users - surely the same grace period cannot be applied to a disabled user of the car park as it again, puts the user of the car park at a disadvantage due to their disability and therefore does not comply with the Equality Act.


I have attached a copy of the Blue Badge that was clearly displayed for your reference.


2. Incorrect calculation of duration of overstay.

The parking signs at the site state that the parking period commences 5 minutes after entry, however on the PCN you have incorrectly calculated the duration of the parking period using the entry time. The duration is actually 02:14:18 as opposed to the 02:19:18 shown on the PCN.


As such the PCN is invalid and should be cancelled.


3. Section 19 of BPA Code of Practice: Signs

Section 19.9 of the BPA Code of Practice states: "So that disabled motorists can decide whether they want to use the site, there must be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle."

I have attached a photograph of the nearest sign visible from the Disabled Parking Bay in which the vehicle was parked. The picture clearly shows that the sign is a significant distance away and cannot be viewed without having to leave the vehicle. In fact, on inspecting the site, there are no signs that are visible to drivers without having to leave the vehicle.

As a result of the three points of appeal, the PCN has been incorrectly issued and in the case of the Equalities Act, it has been unfairly issued and as such should be cancelled.


This post has been edited by rsg444: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 11:32
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 12:27
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Entrance sign is fine. It's pretty prominent, has fairly large lettering on "more conditions", and whether this is council or private yiu would expect to find out what the rules of parking are. It's not credible , in 2021 , to say you think all parking everywheee is a free for all by default, and so you'd have no luck saying no one thought to check.

2) it's still, in theory, an overstay. Same as if the police initially state you did 50 in a 40, but later changed to 48, you'd still have gone over the speed limit

However I would say that 15 minutes could be within grace periods. For a start, 5 minutes isn't sufficient to start the clock if for example the place was busy, queuing etc. I don't know if this was the case.
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rsg444
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 12:38
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Yes I agree, it is an overstay - however what irks me is that their Terms state that parking period commences 5 minutes after entry yet their PCN makes no consideration of this and so they insinuate a longer breach - surely like a Council issue PCN everything has to be accurate?

On the day, as it was the last week before kids went back to school it was busier than normal, there were long queues in both Aldi and B&M. There were no disabled bays either so we had to wait a while (not sure how long) for one to become available.

In addition to this, when we tried to leave the parking spot, as it is near the main entrance, we had to wait a significant amount time before we could even reverse out as so many cars were entering via Horns Road and either blocking the back of the car or not stopping to give us way. This added a lot of time too but I don't know how long unfortunately.

This post has been edited by rsg444: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 12:41
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 12:59
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No, why do you think that?
It's an invoice. Nothing more. Nothing less. They allege you owe them money for x. The only way to enforce this if you don't pay is a court, at which point you can disagree with things but it comes doewn to what matters. If the five min meant yiu can argue it's not really an overstay, then it's important.

Council pcn have real regulations with requirements. This is more akin to an invoice from a plumber. No prescribed format.

So, we've got - took around x min to find a free disabled bay and park, and read signs? Roughly how long? Best estimate. Think how important a few min can be here before it gets to the realms of de minimis ie so trivial a court should not be bothered.

You don't have to know. You have to make your best judgement. Yiure a witness, and you're not expected to be precise about detail from what, two weeks before?
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rsg444
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 14:06
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Ahh I see what you mean - I guess I still have my Council PCN hat on which I need to take off in this instance.

Rough estimate is on entering, the disabled bays were full, so drove around the car park to return back to the bays, then waited for existing occupant to leave - so roughly 6 mins there - none of their signs are visible from within the car so couldn't view the small print in terms of terms and conditions. Once shopping was done - which always takes longer with the disabled user of the car park due to their health, it took around 6 minutes again to wait for a clear space for the car to be able to reverse out of the bay - so many cars just kept coming into the car park it just took ages to get out.
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ostell
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 14:21
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You can't be held to a term, the 6 mins, that you have not read. Driving round is not parking
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rsg444
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 14:27
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So in terms of appealing, do I have a case or should I just pay at the discounted rate - though I do feel it is unfair as the stores were busy and due to disability, things do take a lot longer - simple things like parking up and exiting the car take a lot longer due to the mobility issues.

The terms state that entering or parking on the land contravening the terms and conditions displayed (i.e. max stay 2 hours), you are agreeing to pay £100.

So I could argue that once the vehicle entered the car park, it took approximately 6 minutes to find a disabled bay (As there are so few of them at the location) - then the terms and conditions were read on foot only outside the entrance to Aldi as one has to walk over to them to be able to read the small writing. So that's another 5 minutes. So the clock started 11 minutes after parking.

Add the grace period of 10 minutes following a parking event, that's 21 minutes - seeing as the breach was 2:19, the car was within the grace?

This post has been edited by rsg444: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 14:34
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ostell
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 14:31
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The parking companies will not agree, they want your money. The only place to decide is a court appearance
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rsg444
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 14:38
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So isn't the independent body following the receipt of the POPLA code likely to advise cancellation based on my defence - i.e. is the defence enough to mount a case?

The 14 days expires tomorrow so am keen to send something in today as an appeal.

This post has been edited by rsg444: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 14:43
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ostell
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 15:03
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POPLA will decide that the PCN was issued correctly. You have to show that PPC didn't follow the rules. Unfortunately legal arguments get no where.

You could appeal that there was insufficient allowance given to the crowded condition of the car park and the time of parking was significantly less than the entry and exit times recorded. Have a read here: https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2014...ot-parking.html

So you looking and waiting for a disabled space to give the extra space.
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rsg444
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 15:26
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OK thanks - so their terms and conditions don't mention just parking but instead mention "enter or park" so the circumstances in the link may not apply in this case.

I thought I had decent grounds to appeal, i.e. applying the same 2 hour provision and 10 minute grace period to both able bodied and disabled users of the car park means that the disabled user is at a disadvantage as due to their mobility issues they will take longer to move between stores and also have fewer parking spots to choose which from experience are always occupied.

But if this means court is likely then whats the point of an appeals process if it's going to be rejected anyway?

I seem to have gone from "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" to I probably have no chance unless I go to court - so should I just pay and not bother visiting that retail park again as the likelihood is that I'd get hit again.

This post has been edited by rsg444: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 15:28
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rsg444
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 16:07
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Thanks all for your input, I'm going to appeal as RK based on:

1) Equality Act 2010, i.e. giving disabled users same time limit as not disabled creates disadvantage.
2) T&Cs could not be read until occupants exited the vehicle once parked (had to wait for disabled bay) as no terms and conditions are visible from within the vehicle as per BPA CoP. T&Cs were read 10 minutes after entry and that puts vehicle within 10 minute grace.
3) Incorrectly calculated duration - they calculated from entry instead of 5 mins after entry as per their own T&Cs
4) Non Compliance with POFA as for their appeal process they use the words "All correspondence must include you name, serviceable postal address, the name and address of the driver (if different)....." - This for me is not an invitation, it is a demand. They also don't actually say that they don't know the name and address of the driver.
5) PCN doesn't specify circumstances of why the requirement to pay arose - they make no mention of the 2 hour limit, they just say Exceeded Maximum Stay - but exceeded, by how much?

Do these points seem OK?

This post has been edited by rsg444: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 16:19
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ostell
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 20:06
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If you xan not read the sign saying parking starts 5 minutes after entry then there can be no contract. The contract starts when the ticket was bought

The POFA "invitation" 9 (2) (e) was not given. The comment about about invitation and payment instructions and driver is irelevant as it's not part of POFA

There is also no period parking as required by 9 (2) (a)

The fistral case is very relevant to you

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 20:22
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rsg444
post Tue, 14 Sep 2021 - 09:34
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Thank you Ostell
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 14 Sep 2021 - 11:26
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You have a good case

Your good case is based on elements that popla don't ever really deal with. Popla are very, very narrow in their focus. They will consider pofa fail, signage being inadequate, and standing to offer contracts. You challenge these three always.

This post has been edited by nosferatu1001: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 - 11:27
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