PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Private Parking Fine - Aldi Car Park - Newbury Park Ilford
rsg444
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 10:13
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 294
Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Member No.: 69,597



Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone can help. A family member received a parking fine through the post for parking at the Aldi/B&M/Pets at Home Car Park on Horns Road in Ilford.

According to the letter they stayed there for 19 minutes over the 2 hour limit. As the family member is disabled and holds a blue badge and also parked in a designated bay, it takes them a while to walk around and as they visited all three stores and waited in large queues in Aldi and B&M it pushed them over the 2 hour limit.

Is there any grounds to appeal this - any help would be much appreciated.

I looked up a similar thread but it appears the appeal process used an older version of the BPA Code of Practice which no longer seem to apply.

Many thanks.

R
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 10:13
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
doreen4161
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 10:36
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 386
Joined: 8 Feb 2013
From: teesside
Member No.: 59,857



equility act gives you extra time
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rsg444
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 10:38
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 294
Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Member No.: 69,597



Thank you, is anyone able to assist with a response please? I'm going to drive down to take photos of the signage later on today.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 11:24
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,005
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Not a fine


Email or visit the store. State that a vehicle user qualifies under the Equality Act for reasonable adjustments. A reasonable adjustment in a time limited car park is that users in the EA would get additional time. Ask how they plan to do this for you, and can they cancel this.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rsg444
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 11:28
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 294
Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Member No.: 69,597



We visited the stores they said they can't do anything - they then said to call head office, Aldi said they can't do anything and we should appeal. They said they're not the landowner so can't assist.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 11:32
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 50,039
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



No, you need to contact the landowner and point out their obligations under the equality act. You could ask the stores to contact the landowner but they are under no legal obligation to help (but business could be taken elsewhere).

Your incorrect title has confused issues a bit.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 11:42


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 11:33
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,005
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Ok, so find out who the landowner is then! Google for a start. Ask who lays the non domestic rates for the site with your council, etc
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rakesh_Qor
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 14:32
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 89
Joined: 18 Aug 2021
From: Truro
Member No.: 113,762



Site

Couldn't see any signs relating to parking but the image is four years old, maybe things have changed there since?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DWMB2
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 14:40
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,484
Joined: 9 Apr 2021
Member No.: 112,205



QUOTE (Rakesh_Qor @ Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 15:32) *
Couldn't see any signs relating to parking but the image is four years old, maybe things have changed there since?

This view shows the signs as present in March of this year, as well as an ANPR camera https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5748062,0.0...6384!8i8192

In terms of finding the owners - the management agents are shown on the sign by the entrance as CBRE - maybe try them?


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rsg444
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 15:17
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 294
Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Member No.: 69,597



Thank you all for your advice, CBRE have advised us to appeal and send a copy of the blue badge - they said if they reject it then they will interject as they agree that for a blue badge holder, extra provisions should be made.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 15:55
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 50,039
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



Make sure you record the exact details of that phone call, including who you spoke to.

You’ll need that when the keeper appeals stating a passenger had a BB, as that appeal WILL be rejected I am certain.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 15:56


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rsg444
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 17:04
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 294
Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Member No.: 69,597



Thank you for the advice, I have noted the name, job title, date, time and phone number of the person I spoke with.

I've just come back from the site to check out the signage, the signs don't appear to comply, there is one sign to the left about 7 ft high as you enter but to see it you need to look left. Furthermore, the BPA states that signs need to be visible to disabled drivers without them having to get out of the vehicle - this is not the case here, the nearest sign is about 50ft away and the font is so small, you can't read it from the car.

The signage reads:

".......Parking period commences 5 minutes after entry."

Therefore, according to the letter, the entry time was 11:17 and the exit time was 13:36, the duration is therefore 02:19:18 - however this is only the case if the parking commences at 11:17 - i.e. the entry time when in fact the parking actually commences at 11:22 meaning the duration was in fact 02:14:18 according to their own terms and conditions.


In terms of appeal we are thinking along the lines of:

Dear Premier Park,

Re: Premier Park Ltd PCN Ref

I appeal on the following grounds as registered keeper of the vehicle:

1. Incorrect calculation of duration of overstay.

The parking signs at the site states that the parking period commences 5 minutes after entry, however on the PCN you have calculated the duration using the entry time therefore resulting in an incorrect duration. As such the PCN is valid and should be cancelled.

2. Section 19 of BPA Code of Practice: Signs

Section 19.9 of the BPC Code of Practice states: "So that disabled motorists can decide whether they want to use the site, there must be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle."

I have attached a photograph of the nearest sign visible from the Disabled Parking Bay in which the vehicle was parked. The picture clearly shows that the sign is a significant distance away and cannot be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle.

3. Equality Act
The Equality Act 2010 says that providers of services to the public must make ‘reasonable adjustments’ to remove barriers which may discriminate against disabled people. It goes on to say "The first requirement is a requirement, where a provision, criterion or practice of A's puts a disabled person at a substantial disadvantage in relation to a relevant matter in comparison with persons who are not disabled, to take such steps as it is reasonable to have to take to avoid the disadvantage."

As one of the people in the vehicle that day is a registered blue badge holder, and the fact the vehicle was parked within a Disabled Bay with a clearly displayed valid Blue badge (your CCTV footage shall be able to confirm this), the 2 hour parking provision put the said person at a substantial disadvantage in relation to able bodied users. The person's mobility issues results in taking longer to exit the vehicle, longer to walk to the three stores in the retail park and complete the shopping activities including unloading shopping and then re-entering the vehicle to exit the car park.

I have attached a copy of the Blue Badge that was clearly displayed for your reference.

Due to the in invalid duration time and lack of provision for disabled drivers, the PCN has been incorrectly issued and as such should be cancelled.

This post has been edited by rsg444: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 - 09:14
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 17:23
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 50,039
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



DO NOT identify the driver in any way, go back and edit and refer to them only as ‘the driver’, no I, we, they, he, or even the dog.

The keeper appeals in that capacity, again they state a passenger in the CRA has a blue badge, so edit that letter as well.

As they don’t like reading letters properly, start with the equality act, that a passenger had a BB and then what it means.

Doing your best to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 - 17:26


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rsg444
post Sat, 11 Sep 2021 - 09:29
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 294
Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Member No.: 69,597



Thank you Rookie. Really appreciate the guidance.

How about this?

Dear Premier Park,

Re: Premier Park Ltd PCN Ref

I appeal on the following grounds as registered keeper of the vehicle:

1. Equality Act
The Equality Act 2010 says that providers of services to the public must make ‘reasonable adjustments’ to remove barriers which may discriminate against disabled people. It goes on to say "The first requirement is a requirement, where a provision, criterion or practice of A's puts a disabled person at a substantial disadvantage in relation to a relevant matter in comparison with persons who are not disabled, to take such steps as it is reasonable to have to take to avoid the disadvantage."

As one of the people in the vehicle on that day is a registered blue badge holder, and the fact the vehicle was parked within a Disabled Bay with a clearly displayed valid blue badge, the 2 hour parking provision put the said person at a substantial disadvantage in relation to able bodied users. The person's mobility issues results in them taking longer to exit the vehicle, longer to walk to the three stores in the retail park and complete their shopping activities including the unloading of shopping and then re-entering the vehicle to exit the car park.

Subjecting such a person to the same 2 hour provision that an able body user of the car parks receives is clearly a disadvantage to the blue badge holder and is evidence that you have made no reasonable adjustments as required by the legislation in the Equality Act to prevent any disadvantage to the blue badge holder.

I have attached a copy of the Blue Badge that was clearly displayed for your reference.


2. Incorrect calculation of duration of overstay.

The parking signs at the site state that the parking period commences 5 minutes after entry, however on the PCN you have incorrectly calculated the duration of the parking period using the entry time. The duration is actually 02:14:18 as opposed to the 02:19:18 shown on the PCN.

As such the PCN is invalid and should be cancelled.


3. Section 19 of BPA Code of Practice: Signs

Section 19.9 of the BPA Code of Practice states: "So that disabled motorists can decide whether they want to use the site, there must be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle."

I have attached a photograph of the nearest sign visible from the Disabled Parking Bay in which the vehicle was parked. The picture clearly shows that the sign is a significant distance away and cannot be viewed without having to leave the vehicle. In fact, on inspecting the site, there are no signs that are visible to drivers without having to leave the vehicle.

As a result of the three points of appeal, the PCN has been incorrectly issued and in the case of the Equalities Act, it has been unfairly issued and as such should be cancelled.

This post has been edited by rsg444: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 - 09:31
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rsg444
post Sat, 11 Sep 2021 - 22:35
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 294
Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Member No.: 69,597



Also i noticed on the back of the PCN it had a sentence that stated that the driver's name MUST be included in the appeal - can they insist on this?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DWMB2
post Sat, 11 Sep 2021 - 22:46
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,484
Joined: 9 Apr 2021
Member No.: 112,205



QUOTE (rsg444 @ Sat, 11 Sep 2021 - 23:35) *
Also i noticed on the back of the PCN it had a sentence that stated that the driver's name MUST be included in the appeal - can they insist on this?

They can 'insist' on whatever they like for their own internal appeals process, but there is absolutely no legal requirement for the keeper to name the driver.

Can you show us the notice? (Both pages, redact personal info, leave on dates/times. Use https://imgbb.com/ or similar to upload). Getting CBRE/the landowner to intervene is still your best bet, but there may be deficiencies in the notice that can be used to your favour in case you need to try a different approach.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Sun, 12 Sep 2021 - 19:11
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,005
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



They cannot make that a requirement
In fact, complain to the ATA (round logo) AND the dvla
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rsg444
post Sun, 12 Sep 2021 - 22:52
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 294
Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Member No.: 69,597



Thanks, who are the ATA - are they the same as the BPA?

I've uploaded the front and back of the PCN:

https://ibb.co/Fzb06XG
https://ibb.co/PZTY6Hc

I've also uploaded some photos of the site:

https://ibb.co/dKfVpn9
https://ibb.co/7Xyw9fC
https://ibb.co/r7Nk4HX
https://ibb.co/qjsqSdc

Another interesting point on the BPA Code of Pratice:

21.5a When issuing a parking charge notice you may use photographs as evidence that a vehicle was parked in anunauthorised way. The photographs must refer to and
confirm the incident which you claim was unauthorised. A date and time stamp should be included on the photograph. All photographs used for evidence should
be clear and legible and must not be retouched or digitally altered.

There are no time stamps on the photos!

Another one:

(2) The notice must:
(a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it
was parked and the period of parking to which
the notice relates;

So maybe I'm clutching at straws but the notice doesn't specify the vehicle - just gives a Vehicle Reg, and it doesn't say anything about the 2 hour limit on the PCN.

Even the solitary entrance sign that is not even positioned in a place for a driver to be able to view contains nothing about the 2 hour limit as specified in the code of practice:

This post has been edited by rsg444: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 10:18
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 08:18
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,005
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Yes, it's the bpa. The round logo was my clue to yiu!

May and should. Not must and must. Read what's written!

The VRM IS the vehicle, the period of parking is obviously nothing to do with a parking limit. It is how long the vehicle was parked for, from x to y time.

The two hour limit does NOT need to be specified on entry signage. It merely has to indicate there are terms and conditions. But. It must be visible when driving in. So we would of course need to see this to see what you mean.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rsg444
post Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 08:41
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 294
Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Member No.: 69,597



Thanks for clarifying nosferatu.

This is the picture that shows the sign closest to the entrance:

https://ibb.co/7Xyw9fC

This post has been edited by rsg444: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 - 10:20
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 9th December 2021 - 08:07
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.