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PCN Code 01 - Parking on double yellow lines Tunbridge Wells
moggers
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:28
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Dear all

wonder if people can help with this or am I on a hiding to nothing?

I parked in a bay which is normally enough for 2 cars but the car in-front parked a bit crap so some of my car was on the double yellow lines around it. parking restrictions was from 8am (1 hour free parking) and this ticket was issued at 7:45.

I appealed initially - partially from research on here and they came back within a few hours which makes me a little suspicious.

I would be keen to find out if anyone thinks this is worth pursuing.

thanks
moggers

My appeal:
(6th Feb 23:00)
-----Your Message-----
Dear Sir or Madam

I believe that the contravention did not occur. I was parked in a bay that permits parking for upto an hour from 8am - this photo was taken prior to this time. There are limited photos which clearly indicate the contravention. It is therefore not clear which is a prejudicial.

The evidence does not provide adequate evidence of the contravention as stated “restricted street during prescribed hours”. The parking bay was not in force.

This bay was designed for 2 cars and i had parked right up to the bump of the other car at the time of parking. My car was clearly in the bay, not obstructing traffic and any part over the lines is de minimis.

In addition the PCN issued does not include the mandatory information required by regulation 3(2)(b)(ii) of the Appeals Regulations. The regulations
say that a PCN must state that:

“if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served:

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.”

Parliament has mandated that this warning must be included in the PCN and the council cannot ignore this requirement. Doing so unlawful and prejudicial.

I therefore request that this PCN is cancelled forthwith.

Sincerely

THEIR RESPONSE:
(7th Feb 11:50 am)

07/02/2019
Dear ,
Traffic Management Act 2004 (as amended)
Penalty Charge Notice number: Vehicle registration:
Thank you for writing to us.
We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
You were issued a PCN for parking the rear of your vehicle on a double yellow line. Double yellow lines mean no parking at any time, except to load or unload. However, the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed your vehicle from 07:43 until 07:45 and saw no loading or unloading taking place. The maximum observation period for loading or unloading for PLG vehicles is 2 minutes, which our Officer gave in this case. Because the rule applies 24 hours a day, seven days a week, double yellow lines do not need to be accompanied by a sign.
Your vehicle needs to be wholly within the markings of the bay for the bay restriction to apply. Your vehicle was partially outside the white lines of the parking bay. Parking like this is not allowed even if another parked car has not left enough room or has made the next space too small for anyone else to use. Whilst it is an inconvenience for drivers, in this situation alternative parking needs to be found.
I have noted your comments however the PCN was correctly issued and conforms to the regulations.
If you would like to view the evidence we have in relation to this notice, please logon to: www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn and follow links to pay/appeal your PCN. When prompted, enter your PCN number and vehicle registration details, the available evidence can then be accessed using the ‘View Evidence’ button towards the bottom of the screen.
Going forward
▪ The discount payment amount of £35.00 has been reinstated so you can pay and close the case. You have 14 days from the date of this letter being served to do this. This Notice will be taken to have been served on the second working day after the date of posting (shown above) unless you can show that it was not.
▪ You can pay £70.00 if you pay outside this period. You have 28 days from the date of this Notice being served to do this.
▪ Alternatively, if you wish to make further representations regarding the PCN you will need to wait for the Notice to Owner (NTO) to be sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle. They will then be able to submit formal representations to the Council.
Act now If, after 28 days, you have taken no action, we will send the NTO to the registered keeper of the vehicle. They will then have 28 days to pay the charge or submit formal representations against the PCN to the Council.
How to pay
01892 554094 (24 hours)
www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn
Tunbridge Wells Gateway, 8 Grosvenor Road, Tunbridge Wells, TN1 1AB
Yours sincerely, Parking Processing and Appeals

This post has been edited by moggers: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 17:13
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post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:28
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moggers
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:43
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Here are the PCNs and pictures: it was on camden road







This post has been edited by moggers: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 14:40
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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:57
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We are not used to speedy responses but not suspicious in itself, only a small area with possibly little for the considering officer to do.

Given what you have said and their response I would only like to see any CEO pictures to confirm how far onto the lines you were.
And whether this could be seen as deminimis.

Otherwise, I cannot see the bit on the PCN that says that all challenges made before an NTO will be considered or that once an NTO is served that must be challenged in the form or manner specified.

Appeals Regs 2007 3(2)(b) http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made
(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—
…..
(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.




This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 13:48
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 17:01
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Need the photos but a de minimis looks arguable

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.135906,0....3312!8i6656


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moggers
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 17:06
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Yeah - i put that in the appeal but they clearly ignored it. Its only a very small PCN (less than A5) and exactly what i have pictured there.

Ok here are some of the CEO's pictures



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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 17:13
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Can't see de minimis flying, not just a wheel on the lines, at least a full diameter over.

Leaves the technical challenge if you are up for it.
The legislation specifically says a PCN MUST include and that one doesn't.
Without it, the PCN must be regarded as null and void.
Council probably will not accept so will be all the way to adjudicator.
If they apply the law without resorting to phrases like "when read as a whole", it should be a winner.
Can never guarantee on these.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 18:07
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 17:13) *
Can't see de minimis flying, not just a wheel on the lines, at least a full diameter over.

Leaves the technical challenge if you are up for it.
The legislation specifically says a PCN MUST include and that one doesn't.
Without it, the PCN must be regarded as null and void.
Council probably will not accept so will be all the way to adjudicator.
If they apply the law without resorting to phrases like "when read as a whole", it should be a winner.
Can never guarantee on these.



Agreed but I would give them an out, being that lines obscured by snow you will be more careful in future can they apply discretion on this occation


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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 18:19
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I would also cite the additional charge as a ground too. Can't do so if the OP has to pay more than the statutory limit. Putting a punitive paragraph like that in the PCN must be a PI.

Mick
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moggers
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 18:54
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ok - that's encouraging.

I assume that if want to give them an out - I have to wait for the NTO before I can submit another (formal) appeal. Even if I give them an 'out' they have stated that i should have found alternative parking (i mean it was 7:30 on a sunday morning FFS!!!!).

even about the technical challenge i would need to be at the PATAS appeal stage as I cant imagine that they would back down now. at least it is 'only' £70 (vs £130)


what is the bit about the excessive charging - sorry I dont quite get that.

thank you.
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cp8759
post Mon, 18 Feb 2019 - 00:35
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QUOTE (moggers @ Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 18:54) *
what is the bit about the excessive charging - sorry I dont quite get that.

It says on the PCN that if they can't allocate the payment to the PCN, there may be an additional charge. However they don't say what this additional charge would be and in law they are not entitled to impose any additional charge.

They're very likely to lose on the regulation 3(2)(b) issue if we put a good appeal together, I would fight this all the way.


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DancingDad
post Mon, 18 Feb 2019 - 01:12
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 18:19) *
I would also cite the additional charge as a ground too. Can't do so if the OP has to pay more than the statutory limit. Putting a punitive paragraph like that in the PCN must be a PI.

Mick


Agreed on that, even if payment is lost in system, if made for example within the 14 day period, they cannot apply full penalty (and stick to it) when the payment info is found later, they have to accept the 50%.

Wording on the whole is clunky anyway.
Implies you must challenge within the 14 days for instance.
Does also say that if not paid or challenged within the 28 days an NTO may be served so would likely to be one that an adjudicator would "read as a whole" but nevertheless, it is a pee poor effort at transposing what the regs require a PCn to say.
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moggers
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 22:13
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Ok then - that’s hopeful enough (who needs that extra £35 anyway, right??)

I will try to put this appeal together, based on the above advice - much appreciated!

Is the next step formal appeal to the council or NTO? It’s confusing on the PCN .....i guess I appeal but where? Then formal rejection then NTO then pastas ......
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hcandersen
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 22:43
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Wait for the NTO if you want to continue to fight the penalty.

For now, I would write back to the council and thank them for their reply, the contents of which have been noted and which would be used during the remaining stages of the appeals process. But for the moment you should be grateful if they would explain the meaning and purpose of the following which is stated in the PCN:

PLEASE NOTE: Failure to submit the correct PCN and vehicle registration numbers may mean the payment cannot be allocated and this could incur an additional charge.

Thank you.
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cp8759
post Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 14:27
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 22:43) *
Wait for the NTO if you want to continue to fight the penalty.

For now, I would write back to the council and thank them for their reply, the contents of which have been noted and which would be used during the remaining stages of the appeals process. But for the moment you should be grateful if they would explain the meaning and purpose of the following which is stated in the PCN:

PLEASE NOTE: Failure to submit the correct PCN and vehicle registration numbers may mean the payment cannot be allocated and this could incur an additional charge.

Thank you.

+1


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