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NIP for Speeding - Provide UK or Canadian Address?
jammykam
post Mon, 14 May 2018 - 21:26
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Hey all,

After a bit of advice.

I emigrated to Canada beginning of last year, and returned for a visit to the UK for a few weeks in May. Whilst there I borrowed my brothers car, and got added to his insurance.

Unfortunately I got caught speeding (14/04/2018) and my brother received a NIP (24/04/2018) and he has to provide the driver details (i.e. me). It was a variable speed limit and the camera mounted to the side of the gantry (HADECS 3 i think). From what I have read, it's difficult to contest this, and if memory serves me right there was a variable speed limit in place and I guess I crept over it.

QUOTE
For an alleged offence of Exceed a variable speed limit - automatic camera device
At M25 Junction 14 to 15, Poyle, UNITED KINGDOM on 14/04/2018 at 11:21 hours. Speed 71mph (speed not applicable for red light offences). Speed limit 60mph.
Contrary to the above regulations and section 17(2), (3) and (4) of the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 and Schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.


So the advice I am seeking is, do I provide details my details here in Canada or my UK address...?

If I provide my address in Canada, I have my Canadian license, but from what I have read they will apply the points to my UK license anyway (presume they will just match on name + DoB, it's not a very common name anyway)?

If I provide my UK address, well case closed I guess. I don't have any points on my license, most likely I will have the option of a Speed Awareness course (but I don't currently have any plans on visits back to the UK till next year). Ideally I would like to avoid the points since I plan on returning back to UK in 2 years, so how long would I have to take the speed awareness course? And is it from the time they offer it or the time of the offence (i.e. 13/04/2018)... I'm wondering if waiting till the last day to name the driver buys any extra time that maybe I do plan a short trip back and take the course if possible around September (will try and plan a work trip).

I assume providing my Canadian address and then providing my UK license would mean no chance of being offered speed awareness? (My UK license is at a family members address, but they are not 100% great with looking out for my mail)

Any ideas what would happen if I offered to take the course, but then didn't do so within the time allocation? Would be fall back to the 3 points/£100 fine or something worse?

thanks

This post has been edited by jammykam: Tue, 15 May 2018 - 16:07
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post Mon, 14 May 2018 - 21:26
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StuartBu
post Mon, 14 May 2018 - 23:29
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It's your brother who has to provide the drivers details. You mention a UK address AND a Canadian address but you say you emigrated to Canada so that suggests it's a permanent move so who's address is the UK one you mention. Others will offer an opinion but logic suggests he provides your Canadian adress but attaches a covering note explaining you were here for a short vacation and providing a UK address where you can be contacted if need be.
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jammykam
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 01:05
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Mon, 14 May 2018 - 23:29) *
It's your brother who has to provide the drivers details. You mention a UK address AND a Canadian address but you say you emigrated to Canada so that suggests it's a permanent move so who's address is the UK one you mention. Others will offer an opinion but logic suggests he provides your Canadian adress but attaches a covering note explaining you were here for a short vacation and providing a UK address where you can be contacted if need be.


Yes, you are right, it is my brother that has to provide the address., and yes it is a permanent move (but plan on coming back to the UK in 2 years once i have my citizenship here).

The UK address is a family members home address, I changed all my addresses to there before I moved to Canada (I still had my old car, which got sold a few months after I left, bank accounts, etc). When I got my license here in Canada, I was able to keep the UK one.

But this sounds like reasonable advice, thanks. I'll try and find some info on time limits for Speed Awareness courses, but some info from this thread suggests that there are different awareness courses for each type of offence, so that's something at least.

This post has been edited by jammykam: Tue, 15 May 2018 - 01:07
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The Rookie
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 01:07
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As you’ve not given any of the salient dates it’s hard to give meaningful advice.

Your brother has 28 days to reply, if he gives the Canadian address and if they send you a nip at all you will have a further 28 days to reply, would you be in Canada by then?

If he gives your details as a Canadian (address and licence details) it’s less likely they will send you a NIP and more likely they will assume you were a temporary visitor who is Canadian and not send anything, what they will do is challenge your brother to validate that you were actually here and driving legally, one assumes you were added to the insurance for example? If he can do that it’s very likley nothing more will come of it.


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nigelbb
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 04:31
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 02:07) *
As you’ve not given any of the salient dates it’s hard to give meaningful advice.

Your brother has 28 days to reply, if he gives the Canadian address and if they send you a nip at all you will have a further 28 days to reply, would you be in Canada by then?

If he gives your details as a Canadian (address and licence details) it’s less likely they will send you a NIP and more likely they will assume you were a temporary visitor who is Canadian and not send anything, what they will do is challenge your brother to validate that you were actually here and driving legally, one assumes you were added to the insurance for example? If he can do that it’s very likley nothing more will come of it.

My own personal experience from 7-8 years ago when I still lived in France & got nominated as the driver is that I got sent a NIP in France but when I ignored it I never heard any more about it. I had a French licence at that time which has been exchanged for a UK licence since my return to the UK. I think it even less likely that they will chase up a driver with a Canadian address.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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Churchmouse
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:37
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Whilst there are some things you could get away with, due to your "foreignness", the problem with that is that it is your family member who would get the spotlight from the police. (I'm speaking about what you do after you are identified by the RK as the driver.) Possibly not worth the risk?

--Churchmouse
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cp8759
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 15:23
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 13:37) *
Whilst there are some things you could get away with, due to your "foreignness", the problem with that is that it is your family member who would get the spotlight from the police. (I'm speaking about what you do after you are identified by the RK as the driver.) Possibly not worth the risk?

--Churchmouse

What risk? As long as the OP has genuinely emigrated and resides in Canada, and providing suitable evidence of insurance is available, the police might make enquiries to confirm that isn't a made up relative, but I don't see how the OP's family would be taking a "risk" as such.


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jammykam
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 16:15
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 02:07) *
As you’ve not given any of the salient dates it’s hard to give meaningful advice.

Your brother has 28 days to reply, if he gives the Canadian address and if they send you a nip at all you will have a further 28 days to reply, would you be in Canada by then?

If he gives your details as a Canadian (address and licence details) it’s less likely they will send you a NIP and more likely they will assume you were a temporary visitor who is Canadian and not send anything, what they will do is challenge your brother to validate that you were actually here and driving legally, one assumes you were added to the insurance for example? If he can do that it’s very likley nothing more will come of it.


Dates of the offence were in my original post. But visit wise, I was in UK 10th-28th April and I was added to his insurance as an additional driver for this period of time. I am back in Canada now.


QUOTE (nigelbb @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 05:31) *
My own personal experience from 7-8 years ago when I still lived in France & got nominated as the driver is that I got sent a NIP in France but when I ignored it I never heard any more about it. I had a French licence at that time which has been exchanged for a UK licence since my return to the UK. I think it even less likely that they will chase up a driver with a Canadian address.


I think i'll give the Canadian address and wait it out. If they do send the NIP then I'll need to decide what to do... i'll probably just provide details of the UK license. I don't have any points on it and really don't have "much use for it" so the points sitting on there is probably just academic until i decide to head back to the UK... and I think they'll just apply it to my UK license anyway (since they would create a shadow license for my Canadian one, I figure they'll work out I have a UK license).

Thanks for the responses everyone, I appreciate the advice.

Out of curiosity, how much time do you have to take a Speed Awareness Course if one is offered? Within 3 months of the the offence date (or is it from the date they offer it)?


thanks
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cp8759
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 18:33
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QUOTE (jammykam @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:15) *
I think i'll give the Canadian address and wait it out. If they do send the NIP then I'll need to decide what to do... i'll probably just provide details of the UK license. I don't have any points on it and really don't have "much use for it" so the points sitting on there is probably just academic until i decide to head back to the UK... and I think they'll just apply it to my UK license anyway (since they would create a shadow license for my Canadian one, I figure they'll work out I have a UK license).

If they send a NIP to Canada, I don't see how section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 has extra-territorial jurisdiction. Arguably you could just reply that as section 172 has no effect in Canada, you are not going to supply the information requested. They would then have no evidence of who was driving, and they will be unable to proceed.

QUOTE (jammykam @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:15) *
Out of curiosity, how much time do you have to take a Speed Awareness Course if one is offered? Within 3 months of the the offence date (or is it from the date they offer it)?

The normal deadline is four months, to ensure that if the course is not completed, they still have time to issue criminal proceedings.


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southpaw82
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 19:02
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 19:33) *
QUOTE (jammykam @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:15) *
I think i'll give the Canadian address and wait it out. If they do send the NIP then I'll need to decide what to do... i'll probably just provide details of the UK license. I don't have any points on it and really don't have "much use for it" so the points sitting on there is probably just academic until i decide to head back to the UK... and I think they'll just apply it to my UK license anyway (since they would create a shadow license for my Canadian one, I figure they'll work out I have a UK license).

If they send a NIP to Canada, I don't see how section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 has extra-territorial jurisdiction. Arguably you could just reply that as section 172 has no effect in Canada, you are not going to supply the information requested. They would then have no evidence of who was driving, and they will be unable to proceed.

I tend to agree with you on the jurisdiction point. However, I suspect they would prosecute anyway and secure a conviction (since no appearance would be entered) and simply add points and leave the fine uncollected. Or simply do nothing.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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cp8759
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 20:26
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 20:02) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 19:33) *
QUOTE (jammykam @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 17:15) *
I think i'll give the Canadian address and wait it out. If they do send the NIP then I'll need to decide what to do... i'll probably just provide details of the UK license. I don't have any points on it and really don't have "much use for it" so the points sitting on there is probably just academic until i decide to head back to the UK... and I think they'll just apply it to my UK license anyway (since they would create a shadow license for my Canadian one, I figure they'll work out I have a UK license).

If they send a NIP to Canada, I don't see how section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 has extra-territorial jurisdiction. Arguably you could just reply that as section 172 has no effect in Canada, you are not going to supply the information requested. They would then have no evidence of who was driving, and they will be unable to proceed.

I tend to agree with you on the jurisdiction point. However, I suspect they would prosecute anyway and secure a conviction (since no appearance would be entered) and simply add points and leave the fine uncollected. Or simply do nothing.

As far as I know a pre-requisite for this would be that the paperwork would need to be served out of the jurisdiction under section 3 of the Crime (International Cooperation) Act 2003 and with the notice required by CrimPR 49.1, I suspect this would be outside of the capabilities of the traffic summons team (who are unlikely to be set up with the right templates, have relevant training or even know that service outside of the jurisdiction is possible in the first place).

IMO the odds are that once they are satisfied that the person nominated
1) Actually exists, and
2) Does indeed reside at the Canadian address

they will put it in the No Further Action pile and leave it at that.


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