PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

SIP Parking Manchester PCN, Advice needed please
purple_elk
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 12:21
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 11 Jun 2017
From: Manchester
Member No.: 92,439



Hello all,
On 3/11/2018 I received a 'PCN' from SIP Manchester. I parked in their Charles Street car park and bought a ticket. The PCN stated the reason as 'insufficient fee paid'. I had paid the usual fee as I was parking a Ford Transit and the sign said 'Vehicles above M1 Classification' pay more. I didn't realise that my van is in fact N1 classification.
I appealed, saying that I found the poster ambiguous and confusing. They wrote back immediately to say my appeal had been rejected and my fee had gone up from £35 to £60.
I realise now that at this point I should have made an appeal to the IAS, but the 21 days has now lapsed. I have now received a Notice to Keeper.
I understand from what I have read online the SIP is a really dodgy company and lots of people have had success in fighting these claims. I find the fact that my fee went up because I made an appeal particularly offensive and I don't really want to take this lying down. My fear is that if this does come to court, as I am self employed, I might need to be prepared to go to court on any day of the court's choosing, and this might mean that I won't be able to book any jobs over a long period of time for fear of having to let down a client.
What are peoples' thoughts on this?

Many thanks in advance for all your help.

Elk
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 12:21
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 12:30
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,687
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



well you have some issues

Firstly, the charge never went up. It was £60, discounted to £35. Youre outside of the discount
Secondly, the sign isnt that ambiguous, and as a van driver you MUST know your van is N1, as youre subject to the lower speed limits almost certainly. A transit VAN is also a VAN...
Thirdly, you would NEVER have won an IAS appeal. so dont worry!
Fourthly, you will be notified of the hearing date at least 2 months in adbance, and can put down dates you cant make.

So, sit tight
Come back if you get a LBA or court claim form. DO NOT ignore these, but ignore useless, toothless debt collectors.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bearclaw
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 12:35
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 564
Joined: 15 Nov 2017
Member No.: 95,103



If you havent given away the identiy of the driver to SIP then edit your post now so it referes to the driver and the keeper.

Vehicles above M1 classification - is that above M1 in the M class. Is it all vehicles? What makes an N1 above an M1? Surely A is above M being first in an alphabetical search. There is room for doubt there I would have said and if so the most favourable outcome to the consumer must be applied.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 12:43
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,687
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Bearclaw - read the sign

VANS...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ollyfrog
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 12:57
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 419
Joined: 22 Oct 2018
Member No.: 100,530



Question please regulars, just out of interest: What about car derived vans (Ford transit connect or Peugeot Partner for example), where would they be classified?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 13:01
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,687
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



As a Van, I would suggest
Even if M1.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 13:06
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,126
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



Question please regulars, just out of interest: What about car derived vans (Ford transit connect or Peugeot Partner for example), where would they be classified?

Doesn't help the OP but the Consumer Rights Act 2015 S69(1) says that, where a term can have more than one meaning, the one most favourable to the consumer prevails
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 13:09
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,687
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Being a CDV would mean they were a van, derived from a car. It is still, legally, a van and is declared as such.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 13:29
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,126
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



The issue is whether the sign can have two meanings :

(All) Vans/Minibuses/Motorhomes (including M1) and other vehicles above M1 or
(Only) Vans/Minibuses/Motorhomes (that are above M1) and other vehicles above M1
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
purple_elk
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 13:33
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 11 Jun 2017
From: Manchester
Member No.: 92,439



I read it as '(vans / minibus / motorhomes & vehicles) above M1 classification'.

I was of the understanding that the sign should state what the penalty for not buying a ticket is. Did I get that wrong?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 13:43
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,687
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



I read it as A, purely from construction.

Yes the signs ust indicate any charge for failing
Whats in the "important notice" in tiny lettering???
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 13:54
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,126
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



QUOTE (purple_elk @ Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 13:33) *
I read it as '(vans / minibus / motorhomes & vehicles) above M1 classification'.

I was of the understanding that the sign should state what the penalty for not buying a ticket is. Did I get that wrong?


I read it as A, purely from construction

That's the point
It doesn't need any contortion of plain English to reach either conclusion
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 13:58
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,687
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Hence, its a terrible sign and cant bind anyone to the more restrictive interpretation?
A CRA 2015 argument would be an interesting one, and if made properly would be a bit of a nail

I still want to see what is so IMPORTANT about that "important notice" that it is hidden at the bottom of the sign in a font size a tenth of the main elements...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 18:29
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,751
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



QUOTE
I realise now that at this point I should have made an appeal to the IAS,

Nope, it's almost never worth trying that kangaroo court!

Relax and come back at LBC stage (Gladstones).

QUOTE
My fear is that if this does come to court, as I am self employed, I might need to be prepared to go to court on any day of the court's choosing,


Not necessarily - never fear!

You can put down dates you are not available, in the DQ form after defending a claim, then when the date comes through you can then inform the court & Claimant that you will not be attending and wish the case to be heard on the papers (which will need to go in hard objecting to the £60 and £50 claim add-ons (in case you don't win, you need them kicked out at least because they invent those 'costs') and talking about the unlit and unclear signage and maybe with a photo of the PDT machine screen itself (bound to be unclear and defaulting to the low tariff and not giving you a clue to tick 'my vehicle is a van' on screen before committing to pay.

You can pull out of a hearing & ask for it to be heard in your absence, as long as you give a couple of weeks' notice (in fact closer than that but I'm not typing that as an option here, due to human nature missing deadlines).

IMHO what you do NOT do is give Gladstones a clue that you will agree to the case being heard on the papers, when they suggest it in their daft standard latter once your defence is in. You insist on an oral hearing right up to the wire, as Gs sometimes discontinue personal hearings. Don't let them know it's a paper hearing at all until 2 weeks before the hearing date.

Having said that it is better to attend in person, so that's another reason to wait for a court date and only then decide if you can make it.

BTW I do always wonder why on earth people use private car parks anyway. I almost never do unless it's attached to a store and is free. If it was at night (as per the photo?) what was wrong with on street parking after restricted hours, or was there literally nowhere to park? Never seek out a car park...unless you absolutely have to. Other options exist.

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 18:34
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
purple_elk
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 20:23
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 11 Jun 2017
From: Manchester
Member No.: 92,439



Ok so if I am understanding correctly, I have a decent chance of defending this. What is my next step?

I parked there during the day because I was in a massive hurry, BTW. As a rule, I NEVER pay for parking if there is another option!

I shall go back at some point and figure out what is at the bottom of that sign
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 23:11
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,751
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



I said what the next step is:

QUOTE
Relax and come back at LBC stage (Gladstones).


You could send a SAR by email to the PPC for all photos & all letters, using the contact email in their Data Privacy DPO page online. Always a good idea to do that, to see their hand.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
purple_elk
post Mon, 14 Dec 2020 - 18:05
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 11 Jun 2017
From: Manchester
Member No.: 92,439



Hi,
I have received a letter before claim. I am told that I need to reply within 30 days if I feel that there is a valid reason for the charge(s) not being paid.
nosferatu1001, please could you tell me a little more about a CRA 2015 argument?
Any help on preparing a response would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

https://postimg.cc/06wRNF9Q

https://postimg.cc/DmmQbTtB
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Mon, 14 Dec 2020 - 18:20
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,510
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



OMG - they've tried to justify the additional £60 laugh.gif

23 pence to the IPC? Seriously...

QUOTE (purple_elk @ Mon, 14 Dec 2020 - 18:05) *
Any help on preparing a response would be greatly appreciated.

The signage in the opening post makes no mention of the charge for alleged breach? You said £60 (£35 discounted) - but they claim £100 now?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Mon, 14 Dec 2020 - 18:24
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,088
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



They cannot claim the cost of running the business. Those costs would still be payable even if the driver had not parked. Beavis confirmed this.

As the keeper you can only be held liable for the amount on the original PCN, but do they know the driver, yes or no.

This is an attempt at double recovery
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Mon, 14 Dec 2020 - 18:32
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,510
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



Indeed, they are all costs that are to be included in the core charge... (Although the core charge doesn't seem clear?)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 00:21
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here