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Another blue badge penalty charge!
hahadumball
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 00:42
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Giving up with my local council, seems they will stop at nothing..

Got back from picking up my new car the other day and had a few bags I needed to take indoors from my old car, there was absolutely nowhere near mine to park except the double yellows on the corner of my road, grabbed my badge set the time to 7:30am when I arrived and threw it down on the passenger seat facing the window.

Came back at 09:50 to see a penalty charge on the window (which I had to scrub the hell out of to get the glue off for about 10 minutes)

Attached the penalty charge, checked the evidence theres not a single photo of my dashboard nor the blue badge on the seat, the notice was stuck to the window directly above the blue badge!

Badge gave 3 hours yet the notice was stuck on around 2 hours after I parked, 1 hour early.

Penalty charge and badge as it was when I returned to the car, badge was untouched and 100% the correct time.




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This post has been edited by hahadumball: Sun, 3 May 2020 - 00:45
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post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 00:42
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 08:13
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Manner in which a badge is to be displayed

12. For the purposes of section 21(4A) of the 1970 Act a disabled person’s badge is displayed on a vehicle in the prescribed manner if–

(a) the badge is exhibited on the dashboard or facia of the vehicle, or

(b) where the vehicle is not fitted with a dashboard or facia, the badge is exhibited in a conspicuous position on the vehicle,
so that the front of the badge is clearly legible from the outside of the vehicle.

What makes you think the seat is OK, Not the BB booklet.

Still go online get and post all the council photos and post the PCN both pages in a way we can read it


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hahadumball
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 10:06
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I googled it before and citizens advice link said it needs to be displayed where it can be clearly seen and the right way up which is what I did, seems to be my mistake then

Back of pcn and photos below.

https://imgur.com/gallery/9zM4DLZ
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stamfordman
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 10:16
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Putting it on the seat is not somewhere where details can be clearly seen. Surely you normally display it on the dash? The CEO probably didn't see it or they would have attempted to take pics through the window.

Your only hope is to ask for discretion based on having the exemption and making an inexplicable mistake at the time.
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hahadumball
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 11:34
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Can see very clearly through the window and he would have seen it because the pcn was placed directly above it.

I do usually put it on the dashboard but I'd already got out and just putting it on the seat seemed fine, I've been doing it for weeks and had no issues, I hate putting it on the dash because it's a huge pain reaching down for it every time I get in and out so I googled and it said as long as it's clearly visible, he would have had to walk up to the car to see the dash to see if there was a BB at that point would have seen it, the fact no evidence shows the dashboard which I've found 100% of the time in any notice I and others have had there is always a photo of that, he knew the badge was there but if he took a photo of the dash to show there wasnt one there then it would be visible on the seat. he just wanted to try and get an easy one, but that's just hearsay and impossible to prove.

Took these just now and theres no way he didnt see it.. took a photo of my front wheel stood next to the passenger window and view from where he stuck the pcn...even with the camera quality picking reflection off the window it's still visible

https://imgur.com/a/cpUIl6a

This post has been edited by hahadumball: Sun, 3 May 2020 - 12:03
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 12:12
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Show us the CEO pics we cannot advise without them


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stamfordman
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 12:19
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Pics are in #3. Just a couple showing empty dash but they are not close ups.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 12:55
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 3 May 2020 - 13:19) *
Pics are in #3. Just a couple showing empty dash but they are not close ups.


That Helps

OP you can challenge based on what you say re the BB. the level of proof is the balance of probability. That the photos seem to avoid close ups of the dash and interior can help you because it is unusual that these are missed. There are also a couple of technical errors within the text of the PCN that may well render it invalid. They should.

But these arguments would go to adjudication so it would be at risk of the full penalty.

Stamfordman is good at researching council policy, and they may have a policy of using discretion if you send in a copy of the BB wait for comment on that it might be the easier route


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stamfordman
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 13:31
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Best bet is probably a polite request based on council policy - but have you already had one cancelled for this type of thing?

MC13 where the motorist is a current Blue Badge holder / transporting a current Blue Badge holder and they did not have their Blue Badge and / or clock on display or could not be read or had expired

May accept reps:

If it can be established that this is the motorist’s first contravention of this type and they can provide evidence that they are a current Blue badge holder or were transporting a current Blue Badge holder.


https://www.folkestone-hythe.gov.uk/media/4...976836590200000

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 3 May 2020 - 13:31
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hahadumball
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 15:55
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I'll grab a photo of the BB when I go to the car next, kent county councils website says it needs to be clearly on show, however shepway says it must be on the dashboard so unsure where it leaves me, I guess it's a penalty for not putting it where they want it despite the fact it would have been seen which is quite pathetic, is happily go to tribunal with this as I did last time and won, if I lose I lose.

Never had one of these before for this, last time was the badge slipped over the top of the clock but only just and it was accepted and I bought a holder.

Unsure if that would be relevant here as the BB was on display on the seat which could be seen from both sides and the front of the vehicle, time was correct

This post has been edited by hahadumball: Sun, 3 May 2020 - 15:59
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hcandersen
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 16:16
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Can see very clearly through the window and he would have seen it because the pcn was placed directly above it.

No you cannot know this. You see what you know is there and why should a CEO have to peer through a windscreen or side window for your convenience?

Let's be honest, for something so easy to comply with, anyone would be forgiven for thinking that not complying is a deliberate attempt to mislead.

Judging by the number of times you refer to this or similar in your posts you still appear to think it's acceptable to put your badge and clock on the seat.

It isn't.

The manner of displaying is prescribed and does not include front sear for the convenience of the driver.

Sounds harsh, but why risk getting further PCNs when you know the correct way to display. And why risk antagonising the authority at the formal reps stage, and potentially the adjudicator, by clinging to this line?
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hahadumball
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 16:58
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My last was on the dashboard but the clock slipped, the one at tribunal wasnt BB related and I've been putting it on the seat for a few weeks and had no problems until now, there was no deliberate attempt at anything, its valid in my name with a clock that was correctly set and very much in date.

The correct way to display as seen by citizens advice and kent county council says it needs to be clearly displayed, it was, had he walked up to the car to take the photos he did then he would have seen it, if he didnt see it then he needs his eyes testing as it was visible from a fair distance away from the car and his position when taking a couple of the photos means he would have been right next to it.

The main point here is the officer has deliberately hidden it in the photos of evidence because he knew it was there and wanted to take advantage of the fact it wasnt on the dashboard.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 17:03
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Sorry but there is no way a BB can be clearly displayed on the seat. Forget that and any notion that a CEO is hiding evidence.

As you seem to have had a previous PCN cancelled for a similar issue of failing to display you may get knocked back on this one but which council was it? This one is issued by Folkestone and Hythe DC but the Kent DCs work to a common partnership policy.
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hahadumball
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 17:30
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It was issued by folkestone and hythe

Will have to agree to disagree on being clearly displayed the windowscreen is huge and the seat was all the way back, the officer was the same distance I was in my photos above and it can be clearly read from my camera quality which just picks up loads of reflection from the screen where human eyes wouldnt.

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Slapdash
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 17:49
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To be fair the leaflet you got with the blue badge was quite clear.

When it is not displayed as requested how can the ceo pssibly know it is "being used".

Mine is often on the seat, the other user of my vehicle makes sure it is not on the dashboard
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stamfordman
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 18:14
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QUOTE (hahadumball @ Sun, 3 May 2020 - 18:30) *
It was issued by folkestone and hythe


Yes I know that but who issued the one you had cancelled?

You will not find anyone here who agrees with bunging stuff on seats. That just leads to a bag of hurt.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 3 May 2020 - 20:13
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hahadumball
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 21:32
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QUOTE (Slapdash @ Sun, 3 May 2020 - 17:49) *
To be fair the leaflet you got with the blue badge was quite clear.

When it is not displayed as requested how can the ceo pssibly know it is "being used".

Mine is often on the seat, the other user of my vehicle makes sure it is not on the dashboard


It just says clearly displayed afaik

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 3 May 2020 - 18:14) *
QUOTE (hahadumball @ Sun, 3 May 2020 - 18:30) *
It was issued by folkestone and hythe


Yes I know that but who issued the one you had cancelled?

You will not find anyone here who agrees with bunging stuff on seats. That just leads to a bag of hurt.


Same council it was in the exact same place. Parking has been bad since covid-19 stuff and theres only 2 BB bays within 200m of mine and parking bays are always scarce on a good day.
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Slapdash
post Sun, 3 May 2020 - 21:54
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I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that all issuers issued the same booklet and it is on the government website.

"How to display the badge

You must display the badge on the dashboard or facia panel, where it can be clearly read through the front windscreen. If there is no dashboard or facia panel in your vehicle, you must display the badge in a place where it can be clearly read from outside the vehicle. The front of the badge should face upwards, showing the hologram. The side showing the photograph should not be visible through the windscreen."

I accept that it is guidance not what the underlying legislation says. But that, equally clear, was in post 2.

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hcandersen
post Mon, 4 May 2020 - 11:12
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OP, stand by for more PCNs, and from any authority.

At present I'm unclear what advice you want, or perhaps you're just waiting until one of our posters agrees with you.

Anyway, at present you do NOT know exactly why the PCN was issued.

The contravention is multi-layered:

Failure to display;
Valid disabled person's badge;
In the prescribed manner.

You've leapt straight in with the badge can be seen, which is simplistic.

Failure to display
So that all mandatory details are clearly visible

Valid badge
So it must be current
And you must not have parked for more than 4 hours - as stated on the traffic sign. Which brings the visibility of the clock into the equation.

In the prescribed manner
Prescribed where? Ultimately in the Traffic Management Order, but you might be lucky and find that this does not prescribe a method, but that's hardly going to help you if the CEO's evidence is that they could not see the required details. You knew what it said and you cannot, how ever hard you try, put yourself in the position of someone who didn't and wanted - and was entitled - to see all the material details clearly.

So exactly what so you want?

It's not what you know e.g. weren't deliberately trying to mislead etc, it's what your actions might be reasonably construed as indicating.

Anyway, if you are going to ask for discretion and submit a copy of your badge then IMO you should also submit a copy of your V5C, if it's in the name of the person to whom the badge was issued, otherwise how would they be able to link the registration number to the blue badge holder? A copy of a photo ID driving licence would complete the circle.
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hahadumball
post Mon, 4 May 2020 - 12:16
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Last time I appealed for the badge slipping over the clock they didnt need to see evidence it belonged to me and were happy with just seeing the badge existed on the dash.

I was hoping for some advice on how to appeal this as it was a genuine mistake, I had put it on the seat and googled it after I got indoors, it was laziness that ultimately lead to me just putting it on the seat but in my head I assumed it would have been fine because it was visible and the fact it had never pulled up before I must have just been lucky.
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