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[NIP Wizard] RolandRat
RolandRat
post Mon, 27 Jun 2022 - 19:35
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - April 2022
Date of the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 10 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M1 4550B J33-32 South
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Received a NIP for a not following red x lane guidance.

I joined the slip road (left lane) from J33 where. The slip road filters in and becomes lane 1 of the smart motorway. The first gantry has a red x lane 1, then 2/3/4 have a 50mph restriction.

Where the slip road chevrons meet lane 2 of the motorway (the first point you can exit the lane without driving over chevrons) it’s approx 250m to the gantry. The slip road that descends you onto the motorway hits a steep incline section , so driving down the slip road your FOV is down and once on the motorway the incline wouldn’t put the gantry in your immediate vision but you would be noticing it very quickly.

Now as I’ve just joined the motorway and with no previous signs (HADECS I think) I’ve had no speed reduction warning or lane closure warning. The first sign I see is a red in in my lane at approx 250m travelling at 70mph. The difficulty being that on being able to see and read the gantry signs, I’ve got in the region of 8-10 seconds to reduce speed and get safely out of a closed lane into the second lane.

Any vehicle not joining at that junction will have had adequate warning on the previous HADECS gantry that a speed reduction was in effect and to merge out of the first lane as it’s closed.

Needless to say I didn't get out of the lane and the inevitable letter came with the allegation on. I was in a position where with no warning the lane was closed and on a reasonably busy section of motorway I had to safely merge out of that lane whilst reducing my speed from 70 to under 50 within the space and thinking time of approx 250m.

With the downslope of the slip met by the steep incline of the motorway before your FOV is actually towards the gantry, is it reasonable to plead the sign not visible and legible till under 250m?

Standard first letter asking if I was the driver, if not who was etc and that no photographic evidence would be supplied at this point.

I was offered the 3pts and fine, 3pts and course or magistrates court. Usual no response within 28 days and the issue court proceedings against you. A threat to seek legal advice and that you could incur more points/costs if convicted.

So at this point my only option to see the evidence they rely on in the “allegation” against me is to go to court. No right of appeal or an opportunity to seek clarity on anything or view evidence. Then to warn you that you may incur costs seems outright disgusting. Process is bent!

In the same way that if a speed reduction is set, let’s say 50mph, if doing 70mph the gantry flashes in front of you, changes to 50mph and as you are only 30m from it you are still travelling at well over 50mph when you hit it, you’ve not been “warned” of the change and had time to adjust. (A Martin Lewis article said drivers have 60 seconds after a speed reduction before being fined). Does the guidance state that drivers need adequate warning and time to adjust before any fine can be imposed? Short of heavily breaking or swerving into a congested lane I stood no chance of getting out of the lane in time. No actions that can be condoned and would be dangerous / wreck less driving.

There was no danger in the lane and the next gantry signs were NSL. Now after the expiry of their conditional offer on 9/6 (when they would issue court letters) I receive a further letter some 2 weeks after this kindly reminding me that I’ve not selected one of the two options of the fine or course and to say it’s open for another 14 days. I didn’t select one of the two options, I opted to go to court and as advised in their letter, no response with 28 days would trigger this.

Seems odd for them to not issue a court hearing as per the process, then extend the deadline to nearly 28 days after the original 28 days closed for me to chose the fine or course. Does feel they would rather me take the offers than them have the hassle of court. Is this usual?

In terms of evidence what do they need to supply, do they need more than the one photo of the vehicle captured under the red X, as in do they use the traffic monitoring camera to support try the case. I know it’s a relatively new law and faced media articles in terms of smart laws so I was just after some thoughts.

Without seeing the evidence they rely on and laws it impossible to judge your case surely and how can you face costs and higher sanctions if you provide a case which is reasonable and not just to waste peoples time in court, is it all scaremongering?

Thanks in advance


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 19:35:20 +0000
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post Mon, 27 Jun 2022 - 19:35
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The Rookie
post Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 19:05
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QUOTE (RolandRat @ Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 18:28) *
QUOTE (Slapdash @ Wed, 29 Jun 2022 - 07:10) *
If the sign at the top of the slip showed a red X then you shouldn't have passed that so probably wouldn't have helped.


Sign doesn’t show red X just speed restriction at 50 on that day

Which of course looks nothing like a 50 and only like a ❌, so even a small glance would tell you you needed to get out the lane or stop.
50mph is 22.35metres per second, so if you had seen it at 250m as you should would leave you over 10 seconds to stop or change lane. That doesn’t really sound hard?


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Ahelpinggand
post Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 20:22
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I'd also be careful admitting travelling at 70mph after stating you'd already passed the 50mph restriction sign at the top of the slip...
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mickR
post Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 20:58
Post #23


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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 20:05) *
QUOTE (RolandRat @ Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 18:28) *
QUOTE (Slapdash @ Wed, 29 Jun 2022 - 07:10) *
If the sign at the top of the slip showed a red X then you shouldn't have passed that so probably wouldn't have helped.


Sign doesn’t show red X just speed restriction at 50 on that day

Which of course looks nothing like a 50 and only like a ❌, so even a small glance would tell you you needed to get out the lane or stop.
50mph is 22.35metres per second, so if you had seen it at 250m as you should would leave you over 10 seconds to stop or change lane. That doesn’t really sound hard?


I think he's talking about the sign at start of slip road.
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Newbie David
post Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 21:00
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QUOTE (RolandRat @ Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 19:02) *
There was 50 on the top of the slip road, I saw it.
50..50 says both slip lanes 50mph
I wouldn’t associate a speed restriction with a lane closure on every occasion
I saw the warning in front of me - X - but didn’t have adequate warning to safely get out the lane
I could read it
I don’t think I’ve said I was driving at 70mph?
Didn’t ignore the red X


From the opening post:

QUOTE (RolandRat @ Mon, 27 Jun 2022 - 20:35) *
Now as I’ve just joined the motorway and with no previous signs (HADECS I think) I’ve had no speed reduction warning or lane closure warning. The first sign I see is a red in in my lane at approx 250m travelling at 70mph. The difficulty being that on being able to see and read the gantry signs, I’ve got in the region of 8-10 seconds to reduce speed and get safely out of a closed lane into the second lane.


By your own admission, there was a 50mph limit in place, a limit which was signed and which you saw yet you were still travelling at 70mph when you saw the lane closed indication.
As you were 40% over the limit, maybe this is why you were unable to slow down and move over before you reached the lane closure sign.

This post has been edited by Newbie David: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 21:03
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southpaw82
post Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 21:35
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As sometimes happens in these threads, the position has been explained to the OP. It is up to him if he wishes to accept the explanation or not. It is up to the OP if they want to contest the matter in court.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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mickR
post Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 21:40
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QUOTE (RolandRat @ Thu, 30 Jun 2022 - 19:02) *
You’ve twisted many words and jumped to conclusion in this statement.


Nope I haven't
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Rallyman72
post Fri, 1 Jul 2022 - 13:43
Post #27


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Looking at Google Streetview it is quite clear, from the top of the slip road that there is a restriction of some sort imposed on the gantry. And the speed limit is also shown on signs either side of the slip road which starts as two lanes but tapers to a single lane before joining the main carriageway.


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NewJudge
post Fri, 1 Jul 2022 - 14:49
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This could run and run! biggrin.gif
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