PCN - 62g (advice needed pls) |
PCN - 62g (advice needed pls) |
Mon, 20 May 2019 - 13:08
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20 May 2019 Member No.: 103,947 |
Hello,
My friend advised me to post on here for some help regarding a PCN (London borough of BARNET) i received for parking my car on a grass verge, i have just recently receieved my notice to say my appeal was unsucessful and the charge has now gone upto £110 (this is what i wrote when appealing): I am sorry if my actions on the day contravene the parking regulations but the action was taken because another car blocked me and other road users at the time, I arrived home roughly at 1am on 13th March to find that the silver car (LL04 KGJ) was blocking me from driving around to gain access to my garage which was free because I always park it there, I was therefore forced to park temporarily on the grass as this was the closest and safest place to my property at the time. I have been living at my address for more than 2 years and have never parked on the grass as I have no reason to do so, there is a drive and a garage at my property where I park every day, I know the purpose of restricting parking on the pavement/grass and I do not want to make the environment unfriendly for other (special needs) users too. Please Bear in mind what happened on the night made the situation difficult and the decision I made was the only option to avert further escalation, I would have taken pictures (if I knew it would come to this) of the car that blocked the road along with the van that Was parked parallel to this car in front of the pictured Blue van but it had left in the morning before the ticket was issued, however I did manage to get pictures (the next morning as it was still there) of the car that caused the road to be blocked and hindered me from driving into property that was free. Please also see attached a picture of my car at my property as further proof. It will be greatly appreciated if this order can be removed on a compassionate ground. someone helped me construct this but i feel i may has overdone it and the response i got back was "the council believes that a penalty charge notice (PCN) is payable with respect to the above vehicle for the following alleged parking contravention: 62g parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of the road other than a carriageway (on grass verge)", I'm now looking to appeal this and even take them to a hearing, just wanted to see if i have a leg to stand on or am i wasting my time with this? thanks J
Attached File(s)
LL04_KGJ_back.jpg.MOV ( 638.85K )
Number of downloads: 133
LL04_KGJ_front.jpg.MOV ( 425.46K ) Number of downloads: 113 |
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Mon, 20 May 2019 - 13:08
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Mon, 20 May 2019 - 13:56
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
You need to post the pcn the council photos your challenge and their rejection and the NTO if you have that
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 20 May 2019 - 14:05
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20 May 2019 Member No.: 103,947 |
thank you, i will post these when i get home tonight or around this time tomorrow.
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Mon, 20 May 2019 - 15:09
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
Footway Parking PCNs can be difficult to defend, as it's a universal ban in London unless the Council - in this case Barnet - has passed a resolution dis-applying it, in which case they must put up signs telling people it's OK to do it.
You might want to start the ball rolling by getting onto Barnet's Legal Dept. and asking for a copy of the resolution applying to the road you parked in - some Councils dis-apply in sections of the road e.g from outside no. 1 to outside No. 15 and from outside 21 to No. 29, others are lazy and just dis-apply the whole road e.g Latimer Road from it's junction with High St. to it's junction with The Avenue. If it's the latter, that's your 'get out of jail' card. Do not use an FoI request tor the resolution - it will take too long. In the meantime, let's see their evidence - when posting PCNs or correspondence obscure/redact personal information such as Reg. No., Address and PCN No., but leave location etc visible. This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Mon, 20 May 2019 - 15:10 |
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Tue, 21 May 2019 - 13:25
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20 May 2019 Member No.: 103,947 |
thanks for the feedback so i'm going to post everything that you have requested below
PCN: http://i63.tinypic.com/iycz01.jpg http://i63.tinypic.com/nd8qxv.jpg Council Photos: http://i63.tinypic.com/34ovns5.jpg http://i63.tinypic.com/2a821xw.jpg http://i67.tinypic.com/33kx55c.jpg http://i66.tinypic.com/33cma03.jpg http://i64.tinypic.com/6tliy1.jpg My challenge with corresponding images: http://i68.tinypic.com/28lfds.png http://i68.tinypic.com/xf820.png I am sorry if my actions on the day contravene the parking regulations but the action was taken because another car blocked me and other road users at the time, I arrived home roughly at 1am on 13th March to find that the silver car (LL04 KGJ) was blocking me from driving around to gain access to my garage which was free because I always park it there, I was therefore forced to park temporarily on the grass as this was the closest and safest place to my property at the time. I have been living at my address for more than 2 years and have never parked on the grass as I have no reason to do so, there is a drive and a garage at my property where I park every day, I know the purpose of restricting parking on the pavement/grass and I do not want to make the environment unfriendly for other (special needs) users too. Please Bear in mind what happened on the night made the situation difficult and the decision I made was the only option to avert further escalation, I would have taken pictures (if I knew it would come to this) of the car that blocked the road along with the van that Was parked parallel to this car in front of the pictured Blue van but it had left in the morning before the ticket was issued, however I did manage to get pictures (the next morning as it was still there) of the car that caused the road to be blocked and hindered me from driving into property that was free. Please also see attached a picture of my car at my property as further proof. It will be greatly appreciated if this order can be removed on a compassionate ground. Letter of Rejection: http://i67.tinypic.com/20r1pxu.jpg http://i67.tinypic.com/33xg4r7.jpg NTO: http://i67.tinypic.com/5esk9d.jpg http://i64.tinypic.com/2n67szc.jpg http://i64.tinypic.com/2uensr5.jpg http://i65.tinypic.com/vx2pap.jpg let me know if i have missed anything out J |
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Tue, 21 May 2019 - 17:29
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Nothing you say amounts to a defence, the place where you parked might have been the closest and safest place but it was not a legal place to park. To be perfectly honest preventing grassed areas from turning into muddy verges is precisely the reason why this sort of parking is prohibited, the way you parked is exactly what the legislation is designed to target. Therefore there is little to no chance of this PCN getting cancelled.
All I can suggest is that you make a groveling plea with them to either exercise discretion to cancel or re-offer the discount, they will not cancel the PCN but they should re-offer the discount. This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 21 May 2019 - 17:29 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 21 May 2019 - 19:24
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20 May 2019 Member No.: 103,947 |
appreciate the help and have noted your feedback! i will write to them this week and hope they can re-offer the discount, cheers
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Tue, 28 May 2019 - 13:34
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20 May 2019 Member No.: 103,947 |
Good Afternoon.
I'm about to lodge my plea for the discounted rate, just wanted to check and see if it could be touched up or if there is anything to add/take out: "Dear Sirs Having seen other vehicles parked on the grass verge in this location i foolishly assumed it would be ok to park here until the morning and only realised my error when i went to move the car in morning once i had woke up and saw the PCN. In future I will never park on a footway or grass verge regardless of another user blocking my path to my property. Would you use please your discretion to cancel the PCN in this instance or at the very least offer the discount as i appealed within the 14 day discount period, it is a mistake I will never make again! Regards" again any assistance would be appreciated J |
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Tue, 28 May 2019 - 16:20
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
There's no 14 day deadline with a Notice to Owner, so remove mention of that. Other than that, you might as well send it, you've got nothing to lose in trying at this point.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 13:18
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20 May 2019 Member No.: 103,947 |
Hi, so i think i have exhausted all my options on this one, receiced another letter back regarding the last appeal but i'm thinking i just have to bite the bullet now and pay the £110 as they wont even budge on the discount but thought i would get a final opinion before i do that hoping theres still a way to get the discount back
http://i67.tinypic.com/20r1pxu.jpg http://i67.tinypic.com/33xg4r7.jpg thanks |
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Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 14:53
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,308 Joined: 9 May 2014 Member No.: 70,515 |
If using Tinypic, grab the code for forums and pastye in your post, so
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Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 15:14
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
That is the rejection of your informal challenge. Post the rejection to your representation against the NTO
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 16:41
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20 May 2019 Member No.: 103,947 |
My bad. Must have uploaded previous ones. Will upload shortly. Thanks
This post has been edited by JAWS33: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 16:44 |
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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 13:39
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20 May 2019 Member No.: 103,947 |
Updated with the correct pictures now:
Hi, so i think i have exhausted all my options on this one, receiced another letter back regarding the last appeal but i'm thinking i just have to bite the bullet now and pay the £110 as they wont even budge on the discount but thought i would get a final opinion before i do that hoping theres still a way to get the discount back sleep |
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Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 18:31
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Well they've not re-offered so you might as well carry on, even if you lose the penalty cannot go up any more providing you don't miss any deadlines. Two technical issues I can see with the PCN:
1) They say you must pay or appeal "within" 28 days, this is wrong as it makes the date of service day 0, rather than day 1 2) They don't tell you the adjudicator has a power to allow an out of time appeal. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 21 Jun 2019 - 12:52
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20 May 2019 Member No.: 103,947 |
thanks, appreciate the help and input, how would you recommend i bring up these 2 technical issues when appealing again? , and is the online appeal also the fastest method to hear back from?
This post has been edited by JAWS33: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 11:01 |
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Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 19:45
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20 May 2019 Member No.: 103,947 |
Please can anyone offer some advice on how to compose the next appeal using the 2 technical issues as I don't really understand them..
Thanks |
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Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 10:59
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
For now just register the appeal on the tribunal website and write "detailed grounds to follow" in the reasons box. The council will have to decide whether to contest the appeal, and if they contest they will need to upload their evidence to the tribunal website. At that point, the tribunal will email you a deadline within which you must submit the full appeal wording.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 12:17
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Post the NTO on a different site such as imgur. Tintpics adverts pop up before it can be examined. I am thinking of this case posted by Mick in the sticky
QUOTE 2190177587 (Extract) Mr Levy complains about the contents of the Notice to Owner. The Notice to Owner does convey to its recipient that he or she can make representations to the Authority. I am satisfied that no reasonable person would interpret this as saying that one would have to pay within 28 days even when one makes representations. Furthermore, the Notice goes on to say that "On receipt of the Notice of Rejection you must either pay the penalty charge....." Why would the Notice say this if it can be inferred that payment was expected irrespective of whether representations are made? The submission that the Notice must indicate that the Adjudicator may extend the period in which an appeal can be made was successful in previous cases which have been overruled on review. Lastly. Mr Levy submits that the Notice to Owner is not compliant with the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007" in that it states that if the Penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 days period beginning with the date of this Notice". The Regulations provided that this period, known as the payment period, is the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served. The Authority’s response as follows: “It is considered that when a customer receives a Notice to Owner, that they would read this as a whole and not one sentence in isolation. It should also be noted that, in the previous sentence to that which the Adjudicator has referenced, it is advised that ‘the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this Notice to Owner was served’ can be found repeated within the remainder of the served notice.” The Authority has not cited any legal authority to support their proposition. I suspect the Authority had in mind one of my previous decisions. That previous appeal concerns a moving traffic PCN and the issue was whether the description of the 28 day period after which a charge certificate may be issued (in accordance with the relevant legislation) gives a confusing message as to when the payment period starts. The PCN was held to be compliant when read as a whole because there was elsewhere in the PCN a clear and unambiguous reference to when the payment period starts. In this case, there are three references to the 28 day period. Two of these references are in regard to the period in which representations must be made and the correct wording was used. There is only one reference to the period for payment and the incorrect start date is used. It is not clear to me how the recipients of the notice, most of whom do not have an in depth knowledge of the Regulations, would understand that the period for payment is also period in which representations must be made, and that they both start from the date of service. The fact that the Appellant not made payment but made representations (on time or otherwise) and the fact that the Authority allows as a matter of practice extra days to pay is irrelevant. The issue is whether the Notice to Owner conveys at least substantially the information which it is required to convey. If it does not, it is a procedural impropriety. I am satisfied that the Notice to Owner is non-compliant and not even substantially compliant. I allow the appeal. I managed to get that they use date of service for reps but date of notice for payment and service of a CC -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 13:42
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20 May 2019 Member No.: 103,947 |
For now just register the appeal on the tribunal website and write "detailed grounds to follow" in the reasons box. The council will have to decide whether to contest the appeal, and if they contest they will need to upload their evidence to the tribunal website. At that point, the tribunal will email you a deadline within which you must submit the full appeal wording. i am on the tribunal site now, should i choose to attend the hearing or not do you think? your appeal is accepted, an adjudicator will conduct the hearing. You can be present for this if you wish. The hearing is informal but is nevertheless a judicial hearing like a court. The hearing rooms are public and you may bring a friend or family member with you if you wish. If you do not want to attend, the hearing can be carried out without you there and the decision made will be sent to you. |
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