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Council deny grace period in residents bay, Ticket issued 9 minutes after restrictions began
aphexes
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 17:13
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I was issued at 10:09, 9 minutes after resident only bays came into effect.

The specifics are:
Location: Queens Park Rd, Brighton
Contravention: Code 12
Restriction run from 9am-10am and 2pm-3pm

I challenged the ticket on the grounds that it was issued within the so called grace period of 10 minutes. The specific working of my informal challenge was this:

"The vehicle was parked legally in a bay in which a restriction on parking without a permit comes into force at 10am. The PCN was issued at 10.09am. The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015 states that:
“(2) Paragraph (3) applies in relation to a contravention mentioned in subparagraph (a) to (c ) of paragraph (1) where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

(3) No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.

(4) In this regulation—

(a)“designated parking place” means a parking place established by virtue of an order made under section 1, 6, 9, 32(1)(b), 35 or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984(3);

(b)“permitted parking period” means—

(i)a period of parking that has been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place; or

(ii)a period of parking for which no charge is payable as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place.”

This amendment introduced what is informally know as a grace period. The rest of the amendment can be found here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/561/made

As the PCN was issued within the grace period – that is within 10 minutes of the restriction coming into force – it was not issued legally. As such I trust it will be cancelled forthwith.

Yours faithfully."



Suffice to say the council response was rather curt in denying my appeal (nor did it, typically, address what I had actually written):

You may not park in a bay marked for resident permit holders only unless you are displaying a valid permit.The information downloaded from the internet which you have included in tour sic challenge has no relevance to the issue of this PCN. Enforcement began at 10.00.The FIVE MINUTES (their caps) observation time required began at 10.02 and the PCN was issued at 10.09. The PCN was correctly issued."

I thought I was on the right side of the law here, however their unamused response gives the impression they are confident in fighting this one. Does anyone have any actual experience of challenging a ticket on these grounds?

I've attached an image of their response with some details and an identifying picture blanked out, however those are their blurry photos.

This post has been edited by aphexes: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 15:40
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post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 17:13
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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 17:21
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They will lose, the CEO was impatient. He really should have waited another 5 seconds before issuing. Councils frequently ignore the 10 minute rule because they hate it, but the traffic penalty tribunal will uphold it, just wait for the Notice to Owner at this stage. See Arshad Mahmood v London Borough of Waltham Forest (case reference 2180505690):

"...The effect of sub-paragraph 3 is that a PCN cannot be issued until 10 minutes past the permitted parking period has elapsed. In this case, there is no evidence that the vehicle had parked in the designated parking place before 12.04. The earliest a PCN could be issued, therefore, was 12.29. In this case, the PCN was issued prematurely. Only 8 and not 10 minutes had elapsed before the PCN was issued. Accordingly, the PCN is unenforceable on the basis the issuing of the PCN amounts to a procedural impropriety because there has been a failure to comply with the mandatory requirements of the 2007 Regulations. I therefore allow the appeal on that basis."

In your case, as only 9 minutes and 55 seconds had elapsed, no penalty was yet payable so there has been a procedural impropriety, and the PCN must be cancelled.


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Neil B
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 20:24
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I love their little dig, "downloaded from the internet", when what you've actually quoted is the
relevant legislation, as published, publicly, by the Government.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 20:34
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post the PCN both sides then lets have a little dig back There5 minute observation period is required Doh but the law does not


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DastardlyDick
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 21:51
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Removed due to talking utter nonsense!

This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 21:53
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hcandersen
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 22:25
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Another OP who launches into a challenge and only then comes to us.

Now where have I seen this before?? wink.gif

OP, what is 'subparagraph (a) to © of paragraph (1)'?

Anyway, first things first.

PCN, GSV and are you the registered keeper of the vehicle?

IMO, as regards the contravention the issue in law is whether prior to 10am the location was a designated parking place and whether you were parked. If both apply, then until 10am constituted a 'permitted parking period'.

But your lecture on the law was somewhat heavy-handed and missed its mark.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 22:26
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cp8759
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 22:49
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 22:25) *
Another OP who launches into a challenge and only then comes to us.

I'm not sure I would have submitted a substantially different challenge had I been in the OP's position.


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hcandersen
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 09:53
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Cutting and pasting from regs is difficult enough, but from amendment regs, which of course have no legal meaning in themselves, their purpose having been served by amending the General Regs and it is from those that the OP should have quoted, if they felt compelled to do so.

And 'Suffice to say the council response was rather curt in denying my appeal (nor did it, typically, address what I had actually written):' IMO seems to add a contextual dimension!

So, what the OP did is my starting point.


I parked at *** at which time parking was free and without restriction. (For whatever reason) ** I remained until 10am at which time the restriction came into effect and I accept I was in potential contravention. However, as prior to 10am was a permitted parking period the authority were prevented from serving a PCN until the period specified in the General Regulations had elapsed. For information I have set out the regulations below:

No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.

The PCN was served unlawfully at 10.09.

If the authority do not cancel the PCN then they must establish, not just assert, that the regulations do not apply and/or that the period until 10am is not a 'permitted parking period', as defined. I accept that I was parked in potential contravention, but would request that the authority do not labour the point but instead address the substantive legal issue.

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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 11:47
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I don't think aphexes needs to do anything at all, ultimately the enforcement authority is responsible for applying the relevant law to the facts. Just wait for the notice to owner and we'll take it from there.


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zwekk
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 12:23
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 09:53) *
Cutting and pasting from regs is difficult enough, but from amendment regs, which of course have no legal meaning in themselves, their purpose having been served by amending the General Regs and it is from those that the OP should have quoted, if they felt compelled to do so.


Is there a freely available source of the up to date regulations?

FWIW, I have this from an academic source
QUOTE
Part 2 Penalty Charges
4 Imposition of penalty charges

[(1)] Subject to the provisions of these Regulations a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle where there has been committed in relation to that vehicle—

(a) a parking contravention within paragraph 2 of Schedule 7 to the 2004 Act (contraventions relating to parking places in Greater London);

(b) a parking contravention within paragraph 3 of that Schedule (other parking contraventions in Greater London) in a civil enforcement area in Greater London; or

© a parking contravention within paragraph 4 of that Schedule (parking contraventions outside Greater London) in a civil enforcement area outside Greater London.

[(2) Paragraph (3) applies in relation to a contravention mentioned in subparagraph (a) to © of paragraph (1) where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

(3) No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.

(4) In this regulation—

(a) “designated parking place” means a parking place established by virtue of an order made under section 1, 6, 9, 32(1)(b), 35 or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984;

(b) “permitted parking period” means—

(i) a period of parking that has been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place; or

(ii) a period of parking for which no charge is payable as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place.]

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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 12:37
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QUOTE (zwekk @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 12:23) *
Is there a freely available source of the up to date regulations?

Yes, see row 2 here: http://bit.ly/2FVwsAp


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hcandersen
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 12:48
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You don't need this(with respect, you don't understand it anyway).

Just plain, simple English.

I always look at the Explanatory Note at the end of regs, in this case:

These Regulations amend the Civil Enforcement of Parking (England) General Regulations 2007 to introduce a ten minute grace period before a penalty charge is payable and a penalty charge notice can be served in relation to a parking contravention where a vehicle is stationary in an off street or on street permitted parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

The regs do NOT mean a motorist is not in contravention, just that the authority are prevented from issuing a PCN. So as you were in potential contravention you should admit it and get it out of the way, hopefully this would stop them waffling on about it, if nothing else.


So in your case, as in my last post, you should state when you parked and not leap in with 'I was parked lawfully'. You have to tell a story, not harangue the authority with disembodied quotes from amendment regs.
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aphexes
post Mon, 4 Mar 2019 - 16:29
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Thanks for your responses.

With respect, I didn't post here first before submitting my challenge, but I did read through a lot of relevant threads so had researched the basis of the challenge. And I tried to outline it in the style I had seen recommended on other threads. Citing the relevant legislation and how it applies to this case seems logical to me, but as a lay person I don't fully understand how and when an amendment stops being an amendment and becomes just another piece of the original act, and so may have worded it somewhat clumsily. Either way, it would be pedantic surely of the council to harp on trying to extract a concession that there was a contravention, albeit one that they may not issue a ticket for, when the basic substance of my challenge is patently obvious and with grounds.

How should I word my challenge to the NTO? As - failing some technical fault with the NTO - the basis for my challenge will be identical to the informal challenge, is there a better way to outline my case?

This post has been edited by aphexes: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 - 19:45
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 4 Mar 2019 - 16:39
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Do you have the NTO yet ?


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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 4 Mar 2019 - 20:00
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Our friends in Brighton will be reading this thread so members should not make it easy for them.

My view is that the Council's response (which should be posted in full) gives rise to a claim for costs because of gross misrepresentation of the law. If they state what the OP submitted has no relevance to the issue of this PCN they are out of their tree!

Mick
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Longtime Lurker
post Mon, 4 Mar 2019 - 20:18
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If "our friends in Brighton" want to read something online, perhaps they should try this: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/misco...t-public-office

...because they are treading mightily close.
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cp8759
post Tue, 5 Mar 2019 - 17:15
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QUOTE (Longtime Lurker @ Mon, 4 Mar 2019 - 20:18) *
If "our friends in Brighton" want to read something online, perhaps they should try this: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/misco...t-public-office

...because they are treading mightily close.

No they're not. It would be the easiest defence case ever. All the defence barrister needs to say is "Your honour, this case should be dismissed. With respect, my client is a moron and he had no idea what he was doing, as such he couldn't have had any malicious intent". Proving malicious intent requires compelling evidence, of which there is none.

I remind you of Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor)

QUOTE (aphexes @ Mon, 4 Mar 2019 - 16:29) *
... but as a lay person I don't fully understand how and when an amendment stops being an amendment and becomes just another piece of the original act

I'll make it east for you, the answer is immediately, as soon as the amendment comes into force it just becomes part of the original legislation. If you've received an NtO, show us.


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aphexes
post Tue, 5 Mar 2019 - 20:14
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No NtO yet. I'll be happy to supply it when it comes, however apart from looking for technical faults with it and considering the basis of my formal challenge will be the same as my informal challenge, why is it so important to see the actual NtO?
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 5 Mar 2019 - 20:19
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QUOTE (aphexes @ Tue, 5 Mar 2019 - 20:14) *
No NtO yet. I'll be happy to supply it when it comes, however apart from looking for technical faults with it and considering the basis of my formal challenge will be the same as my informal challenge, why is it so important to see the actual NtO?


councils make mistakes or you would not have a challenge. Show us


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aphexes
post Thu, 7 Mar 2019 - 18:10
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NtO below...

This post has been edited by aphexes: Thu, 7 Mar 2019 - 18:15
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