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//D//
Posted on: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 - 23:42


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Thanks Andy Foster, your post appears to add weight to mine smile.gif

If the recipient claims to be mislead despite the photo being able to clear the whole mess up then that's up to them, however it could prove fruitless for them.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #383409 · Replies: 23 · Views: 6,090

//D//
Posted on: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 - 02:30


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QUOTE (Bryan Armstrong @ Mon, 13 Jul 2009 - 14:05) *
QUOTE (Durzel @ Mon, 13 Jul 2009 - 10:32) *
if the images show extrenuous circumstances involving emergency vehicles or cops directing traffic you could be convicted without actually receiving points or a fine.
If you disobey an instruction sign, or a red light, at the direction of a Police Constable (or a "proper" Traffic Warden) no offence is committed.

However it's worth pointing out that when EMS vehicles are using their blue lights and sirens to respond to an incident they are not giving you an instruction, the emergency equipment is used to alert you to their presence as they use their legal exemptions to respond quickly. Unless you are actually instructed to go through the red light then the emergency equipment alone would not provide that defence for you.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #382754 · Replies: 22 · Views: 6,328

//D//
Posted on: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 - 02:22


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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 13 Jul 2009 - 16:02) *
QUOTE (//D// @ Mon, 13 Jul 2009 - 13:43) *
This is called the Slip Rule and only allows for minor errors.


The slip rule applies only to papers generated by the court, such as the summons. So, a typo in the road name on the summons is not fatal to the prosecution case. The slip rule can not be used to correct an error on non-court papers. An error in the road name on a witness statement might be able to be explained away by the witness giving oral evidence in lieu of the statement and explaining the error if asked. An error in the road name on an NIP might invalidate it if (and only if) it led to the recipient being unsure as to where the offence took place.

However if the defendant had seen the photo evidence and it could be shown that the photo identified the location of the offence, in a way that they would be able to recognise that location, then the prosecution could still go ahead.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #382753 · Replies: 23 · Views: 6,090

//D//
Posted on: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 - 12:43


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QUOTE (jobo @ Mon, 13 Jul 2009 - 00:50) *
hmm not quite right

they can as you say reissue which is why you dont draw their attention to it till the 14 have lapsed

if the notice is wrong this cant be altered in court and should be a bar to prosicution
If the evidence of the offence shows the correct information that a minor mistake or typo got wrong on the NIP then the prosecution can still go ahead, as long as the correct information is on the court papers.

So if a NIP said Wawa Road but the photo showed Wowo Road you could still be prosecuted as long as it was realised prior to going to court and the court papers were created to the above affect. This is called the Slip Rule and only allows for minor errors.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #381309 · Replies: 23 · Views: 6,090

//D//
Posted on: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 - 12:33


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I think it also very unlikely for a cop to pull you for it, however the cameras often catch people out at these times.

When EMS drivers go through a speed camera, ATS camera or similar they shout up over the airwaves so that the activation is noted on the incident log. Some EMS workers will be kind enough to shout up that a civilian vehicle has activated an ATS camera due to their presence, but not all will do this or get the chance.

Either way, I personally don't go through a red light camera for EMS vehicles. I leave space in case I have to move elsewhere and haven't had this issue so far.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #381302 · Replies: 22 · Views: 6,328

//D//
Posted on: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 - 01:00


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QUOTE (teapot42 @ Wed, 8 Jul 2009 - 20:21) *
Presumably this does not apply to wild animals (although of course you should stop if possible) but how about cats? Most of my near misses have been with cats wandering across roads and SWMBO had one of their cats killed by a driver who just carried on. (Driver following stopped and took it to the vets to be scanned) Does the fact cats are classed as feral alter the law in this regard?
If you run over a cat then you are not required to report it as with dogs. If however someone deliberately runs over a cat it's classed as criminal damage as the cat is normally someone's pet and therefore property (not as uncommon as you might expect, with neighbour disputes and cat deposits in people's gardens etc.)

QUOTE (teapot42 @ Wed, 8 Jul 2009 - 20:21) *
As an aside, is there any duty to report stray animals (usually sheep I find) wandering around on roads? And if so, who to? I would feel daft calling 999 to report one but as there isn't a national non-emergency number you aren't always going to know the local number in an unfamiliar area.
If you spot a hazard in the road that you feel is worthy or reporting to the local police then you can call the local police on their non-emergency number (found easily online, via directory enquiries etc.) unless of course you think it's urgent enough to warrant a 999 call. If I saw sheep on the loose and it wasn't an emergency I'd probably alert a local farmer if I passed one or saw premises close by, depends very much on the circumstances. Sheep on a country track isn't such an issue, sheep invading the M1 is certainly a 999 call.
  Forum: Government Policy · Post Preview: #381205 · Replies: 29 · Views: 14,368

//D//
Posted on: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 - 00:48


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QUOTE (ruru222 @ Sat, 11 Jul 2009 - 12:59) *
hie guys i need your help.


i came to uk in january 2003 and claimed asylum . my asylum was refused and since then i was given temporary admission waiting to be removed to zimbabwe. i tried to change my licence during these years but i was told i could not change because i was not a resident in uk since i was a failed asylum seeker .i was then granted ILR in december 2008. i applied to change my licence to a british one but they gave me a provisional licence saying that i was in uk for more than 5years. i went back to zimbabwe in april and i came back in june . i have now send my zimbabwean licence to dvla to be changed . on the forms where they ask when did you come to live in the uk i put in the date i last entered ,that is last month. do you think the dvla will change my licence.

please help
You can only change your Zimbabwe licence for a UK licence any time up to 5 years from when you became resident in the UK (and your licence has to still be valid and have the correct categories etc). So your situation is an interesting one, because you'll note the important word in my last sentence, being 'resident'. It appears, from your post, that the DVLA initially denied your request in 2003 saying that the grounds for this was because you weren't resident in the UK. However, now you have indefinite leave to remain they are refusing your request saying you've been resident for over 5 years. That should be an interesting one for you to argue with them, providing you still have all the documentation from them over the years.

On the note of being classed as a resident, it was ruled in April 2008 that failed asylum seekers should be classed as ordinarily resident in the UK. This was to do with the whole NHS and non-residents argument, and as such it lead to failed asylum seekers being eligible for treatment under the NHS. It's not yet been challenged either way as far as I am aware, however this may play a part somewhere along the lines in your claim for a UK licence. I'm not an immigration specialist though, so it's worth seeking advice from a specialist.

In terms of leaving the country to go to Zimbabwe from April until June, a period of 2 months, this won't be sufficient to change the decision above if they are saying you have 5 years from being resident in the country. The same also counts as to the permitted use of your Zimbabwe licence in the UK, now you've been here for 5 years your Zimbabwe licence can NOT be used any longer in the UK. You can only use the Zimbabwe licence for 12 months, after this time you must stop driving or use the above route to obtain a UK licence but still not drive after 12 months until you have your UK licence within the 5 years. If you continue to drive on your Zimbabwe licence after the 12 months and you get stopped you'll be reported for driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence, an offence which will see you before a magistrate. You'll receive points on your UK provisional licence and end up with a fine too. The 2 month period out of the country does not get around the above and does not give you a further 12 months to drive on the Zimbabwe licence.

Remember that agencies can apply for information on your entering and leaving of the UK, so each time you've passed through passport control you'll be logged. This means you can't pretend to have been out of the country for x amount of time to attempt to get around any of the above.

So to sum up,

If you've been here over 12 months (and it seems you have), and if you only hold a Zimbabwe licence and UK provisional, STOP driving unless of course it's with L plates and a passenger who is qualified to supervise you.

In terms of getting your full exchanged licence from the DVLA, I suspect chances are slim and you'll probably need to seek advice and help to do so.

Good luck and report back to us to let us know how you get on.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #381204 · Replies: 3 · Views: 4,081

//D//
Posted on: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 - 23:56


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QUOTE (deguerre @ Sat, 11 Jul 2009 - 15:00) *
No sorry I understand that, my question now is something different.

The FPN was layered carbon copy paper, I have submitted my copy and they have since written to me saying that they are still waiting for the officers copy of the FPN. What I am asking is this:
If the officers copy doesn't turn up (because he has lost it) will they still prosecute me?

Thanks

Yes, the prosecution can still go ahead because they have your copy and you've responded to it. The fact that the officer's copy has gone missing only means that the officer receives a quick nudge to ask where his copy is and has a bit of explaining to do if it's not been submitted. In terms of how this affects you, it doesn't really, your prosecution can and more than likely will, still go ahead I'm afraid.

QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 11 Jul 2009 - 15:07) *
probly notif he lost it, and i heard of one copper disciplined when they found two hundred un processed in tickets his draw, then your off free

but to be honest i thing it will get there in due course and as the fpn wont stand they have 6 months to lay the info

However in the OP's case the ticket can be processed because he / she has responded to it. Had the OP not responded to the FPN and the officer's copy not turned up then the OP would have got away with it, BUT (and it's a big but) this is a huge gamble and not worth it. The officer's copy being missing will cause a spot of inconvenience for the officer, but in terms of the OP there'll be no difference.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #381196 · Replies: 40 · Views: 9,528

//D//
Posted on: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 - 23:46


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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Thu, 2 Jul 2009 - 02:51) *
Has anyone actually seen a case on here where the OP was actually prosecuted and convicted in similar circumstances, rather than merely trying to appeal to the scammers' better nature and then taking the fixed penalty?

Whilst there is no statutory defence, I would argue that the common law defence of duress of circumstances (sometimes called necessity) is applicable, and failing that, there are grounds for special reasons not to endorse and an absolute discharge - as long as the court believes you.

Obtaining evidence from the ambulance service that an ambulance went through those lights on that occasion would probably be a great help, as would any other evidence that you might be able to obtain (any CCTV covering that junction)?
I am aware of cases where people have unfortunately been prosecuted for moving out of the way of EMS vehicles.

Can't find anything specific for the more recent cases, however a quick google reveals this http://www.radar-detectors.co.uk/news_pass...car_through.asp which should give an idea with 2 examples.

I would still say to the OP to not worry unless an envelope appears on his doorstep though.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #381193 · Replies: 22 · Views: 6,328

//D//
Posted on: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 - 23:31


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QUOTE (Roverboy @ Thu, 25 Jun 2009 - 22:33) *
As it stands you crossed the line on Red, thats it. In law, doing it for any reason is not a defence. This has come up before on here and the person has had to take the rap. I know it sounds mean and cold-hearted, but I will not, if it means breaking the law move out the way for emergency service vehicles anymore. If you get caught doing so as you may have, you will not (usually) recieve any sympathy anymore (they just want your money) and contesting means a trip to the Maggys which is always a toss of the coin (remember the case of the blood transfusion driver caught speeding whilst rushing to deliver urgent blood and the police refused to drop it and done him).

You have learned a possibly expensive lesson that these days "doing the right thing" is not always the best thing to do, but that said, you have my respect for doing so, even though i wouldn't have.

There is of course another solution. Stop slightly back from the line, leaving enough space to move forward without crossing it if required in a situation like this. Then if an emergency services vehicle comes up behind you, you at least have some option. The rest is a moral choice for yourself I guess.

If all drivers on the roads drove properly and left enough space between each vehicle then these situations would be less common, but unfortunately modern traffic sees plenty of people stopped bumper to bumper which is when problems occur when emergency service vehicles are attempting to get through.

QUOTE (cornwalljay @ Fri, 26 Jun 2009 - 09:56) *
if i was driving the fire engine and came to a similar situation i was tought to turn off the blues and twos and wait for the traffic to move forward legally.
Yep, that is still taught today to all drivers driving under emergency response situations. If people move through of their own accord then you can proceed, if not then don't force them, turn off your equipment and wait until it's safe to proceed.
QUOTE (cornwalljay @ Fri, 26 Jun 2009 - 09:56) *
i was also told it is illegal to force someone to pull through a red light to create a clear path.
If an emergency service vehicle forces someone through a red light and that vehicle is then involved in an accident the emergency services vehicle must stop as the accident has occurred owing to their presence. A supervisor will attend the scene and the chances are that the driver of the emergency services vehicle will be held liable for the accident.
QUOTE (cornwalljay @ Fri, 26 Jun 2009 - 09:56) *
mind you, i was also told that our speed shouldn't exceed 20mph over the posted limit huh.gif
There are still some parts of the country where 'standard' emergency service drivers are subject to this rule, however it does not affect advanced emergency service drivers (don't confuse advanced and standard with civilian equivalent names, standard EMS drivers are more qualified than the AIM drivers). Not all areas in the UK have this rule in place.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #381192 · Replies: 22 · Views: 6,328

//D//
Posted on: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 - 23:19


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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 3 Jul 2009 - 09:47) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Fri, 3 Jul 2009 - 00:59) *
wouldnt it mans private plate idea be a non starter as the plate change would still be recorded on the police computer??

AIUI its a PNC marker against the VRM< I doubt that would be updated when you changed said VRM.

Simon

There won't be any such 'marker' on the PNC as such, it will be the 'local system' which holds any information that could potentially lead to the vehicle being stopped for a check on the driver. The PNC does not hold such information.

If the OP contacts the force in question, stating that they feel they are being stopped more than they consider to be acceptable, and make a complaint to these lines then they should experience a drop in the number of times they are stopped. If there is incorrect or outdated information on the local system that it's easily rectified and once the ANPR update is carried out that will sort that issue too.

'Markers' as people are referring to them on here, apart from the usual obvious items on the PNC are only for things such as warnings under s.59 of the police reform act which remain on the vehicle and driver for 12 months. Any locally gathered intelligence will not feature on the PNC as there's no ability to do that on there.

It's a minor point, but people keep referring to a 'marker on the PNC' which is incorrect.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #381191 · Replies: 16 · Views: 5,945

//D//
Posted on: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 - 22:55


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Was her car not also seized under s.165 RTA? If not she was lucky.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #381187 · Replies: 3 · Views: 1,841

//D//
Posted on: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 - 22:30


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As the rules stand the error in the road name on the NIP won't remove your obligation to reply to it. If the photo shows the offence and the location is identifiable then I think you'll find the prosecution will more than likely go ahead as errors such as this do not automatically mean the prosecution is dropped. The NIP cannot be changed / amended however a replacement NIP could be sent within 14 days of the offence if they are aware of the error. Further to this, court papers allow for 'minor errors' to be rectified, which includes road names. So if you were to reply stating that you weren't on that road at that time you'd probably find one of the above two occur.

So to answer your question, I do not believe the NIP is invalid.

You can of course reply asking for the details of the NIP to be confirmed, but at that point you'll probably find that one of the two mentioned routes above will come in to play.

Good luck with it and let us know how it turns out.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #381184 · Replies: 23 · Views: 6,090

//D//
Posted on: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 - 21:49


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It seems a little harsh to me. If the high level brake light was working then the officers could have offered him the choice of going for the Vehicle Defect Rectification Scheme, giving him 14 days to get the fault fixed, the VDRS form stamped at an MOT testing station and produced at a police station.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #381164 · Replies: 4 · Views: 2,044

//D//
Posted on: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 - 21:27


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Yes they can, although it's not all that likely to be honest and depends on the circumstance. It's more common to find them used for bus lane offences, depending on the area and the contract with they've got.

If it was a one off, unless it was particularly dangerous the CCTV operator probably wouldn't even notice. There are normally banks of screens monitoring the city and only a handful of operators. They are looking out for other stuff really. However if you were doing it through many red lights or did so in such a manner that caused concern re your driving then you'd probably find they contact the local bobbies and pass on your registration.

I know that more and more CCTV centres are getting police radios to directly communicate with the police in their cities, reducing the delay in getting cops to the scene of an incident. Some CCTV centres even have a cop sat with the operators 24/7, but again it depends on where you are in the country.
  Forum: Technical Discussion of Enforcement Devices · Post Preview: #381158 · Replies: 9 · Views: 3,134

//D//
Posted on: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 - 21:20


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In short, it sounds like you've got away with it and should relax. Only be concerned if the envelope lands on your doorstep, until then leave it out of your mind as there's nothing you could do either way.
  Forum: Technical Discussion of Enforcement Devices · Post Preview: #381155 · Replies: 3 · Views: 1,638

//D//
Posted on: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 - 20:53


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On the Endorsable Fixed Penalty Notice there are really two parts to the form, the first being the FPN itself and the second being the producer. You have 28 days to respond to the FPN but only 7 days for the producer. This means you have to produce the required documents at a police station within 7 days of the offence occuring - the offence for the producer is of course not producing your documents at the roadside when requested to do so by a constable in uniform, if you had all these with you at the time of getting the FPN then you shouldn't have this area ticked and it should be crossed out by the officer.

As far as the counter clerk is concerned they should look at the requested documents, stipulated by the ticked boxes, make sure they are all in order and record their observations either way. The documents should then be returned to the person responding to the producer because at that particular moment in time they are only responding to the producer, within the 7 days, as required by law. The 28 days for the FPN part of the ticket is still ticking away at this point.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #381148 · Replies: 10 · Views: 3,399


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