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Are the mobile speed cameras in the UK supposed to be conspicuous? , Split from hijacked thread
Richard_Z
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:26
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Question: Are the mobile speed cameras in the UK supposed to be conspicuous (e.g. high vis tape, etc)?
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post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:26
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peterguk
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:27
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QUOTE (Richard_Z @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:26) *
Question: Are the mobile speed cameras in the UK supposed to be conspicuous (e.g. high vis tape, etc)?


No. And no signs necessary.


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BaggieBoy
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:51
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QUOTE (Richard_Z @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:26) *
Question: Are the mobile speed cameras in the UK supposed to be conspicuous (e.g. high vis tape, etc)?

Nope, see this article about the infamous North Wales horse box: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7322582.stm
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kernow2015
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 06:41
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Just beware that a lot more forces are now equipping their vans with infra red lighting to work in low light conditions, I know Devon & Cornwall have been on the news talking about the new kit.
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:58
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QUOTE (kernow2015 @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 06:41) *
Just beware that a lot more forces are now equipping their vans with infra red lighting to work in low light conditions, I know Devon & Cornwall have been on the news talking about the new kit.

Every so often this comes out, mainly from a speed camera partnership. In reality I would be amazed if it happened because I can't really see anyone being the first to risk assessment to allow it.

I am happy to be proved wrong but I have never heard of anyone actually being caught at night by a camera van. There's lots of things that are possible, but it doesn't mean they're practical.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 08:58
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While there is no need for Camera's or vans to be conspicuous, its probably worthwhile explaining how people have been duped into believing it.

Speed cameras first appeared under the Conservative governments of Thatcher/Major, but during the Blair government years there was a massive expansion in use where the (newly formed) camera partnerships got to keep the money from fixed penalties to fund new equipment, staff costs etc, to do that they 'had to' (they didn't actually, but most played along) make cameras conspicuous (and DfT guidelines were issued on what that meant) but if they didn't it had no effect on the legality of the operations it just meant they weren't meant to keep and use the cash.

The partnerships have long since gone (but the Police kept the equipment that was bought by them) and no longer have to 'pretend' to follow the DfT guidance and often don't (though mostly still do), they are now funded by some money from central government and through what they cream off (circa 15%) from the courses offered to lowest level offenders.

AS an aside it's worth noting the growing number of courses they now offer* in order to fund themselves, noting the rather distasteful loop of the fact that the operator and staff at the camera units rely on catching people to offer courses to so that they can take their 15% and keep themselves in a job, if no-one was caught they would be out of a job.

* may be out of date, but from memory, 20 speeding, regular speeding, motorway speeding, red light and mobile phone as well as for careless driving, so as long as you only commit one of each every 3 years you can potentially be caught committing these life threatening acts twice a year on average and never get any points ever, just paying the Police circa £30 a year in 'contributions'.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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justforthepictur...
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 20:50
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:58) *
QUOTE (kernow2015 @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 06:41) *
Just beware that a lot more forces are now equipping their vans with infra red lighting to work in low light conditions, I know Devon & Cornwall have been on the news talking about the new kit.

Every so often this comes out, mainly from a speed camera partnership. In reality I would be amazed if it happened because I can't really see anyone being the first to risk assessment to allow it.

I am happy to be proved wrong but I have never heard of anyone actually being caught at night by a camera van. There's lots of things that are possible, but it doesn't mean they're practical.

Regarding your scepticism about infra red lighting, Orpheus (that's what it's called), is currently being used by fifteen UK constabularies, every speed enforcement vehicle Police Scotland uses has Orpheus. What risk assessment issues? You park by the side of the carriageway just like the other millions of vehicles - nothing has changed - Orpheus is a very dull red glow.

It's very practical, the enforcement unit I used to work for has just purchased eight units and have changed their shift patterns to allow working until 02:00.

Going back further, I detected many thousands of vehicles in excess of the posted threshold without the use of supplementary lighting working up to 23:30. There were all kinds of possible variations that presented themselves, the vehicle behind simply lit the rear plate of the vehicle in front, whilst existing ambient light from the street lights combined with no polarising filter, maximum aperture and the low light setting on the video camera allowed the majority of approaching vehicle's plates to be recorded with ease.





QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 08:58) *
The partnerships have long since gone (but the Police kept the equipment that was bought by them) and no longer have to 'pretend' to follow the DfT guidance and often don't (though mostly still do), they are now funded by some money from central government and through what they cream off (circa 15%) from the courses offered to lowest level offenders.

Which bits of the DfT guidance do some still have to pretend to follow?

Can you provide anything to support the claim some money still originates from Central Government for speed enforcement funding and how much it is?


--------------------
'Speed Kills' simply means, hit something or someone fast enough and it will result in a fatality.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 21:39
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QUOTE (justforthepictures @ Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 21:50) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 08:58) *
The partnerships have long since gone (but the Police kept the equipment that was bought by them) and no longer have to 'pretend' to follow the DfT guidance and often don't (though mostly still do), they are now funded by some money from central government and through what they cream off (circa 15%) from the courses offered to lowest level offenders.

Which bits of the DfT guidance do some still have to pretend to follow?

Can you provide anything to support the claim some money still originates from Central Government for speed enforcement funding and how much it is?

I didn’t say they have to if you read again (‘no longer have to ......’)

Part of my County Council money for policing is ring fenced for road safety, the bulk of the income into the counci” is from central government, ergo......


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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122basy
post Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 08:38
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:58) *
QUOTE (kernow2015 @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 06:41) *
Just beware that a lot more forces are now equipping their vans with infra red lighting to work in low light conditions, I know Devon & Cornwall have been on the news talking about the new kit.

Every so often this comes out, mainly from a speed camera partnership. In reality I would be amazed if it happened because I can't really see anyone being the first to risk assessment to allow it.

I am happy to be proved wrong but I have never heard of anyone actually being caught at night by a camera van. There's lots of things that are possible, but it doesn't mean they're practical.

Would there be any reason you would be informed of anyone being caught at night?
Flashes for use with mobile enforcement equipment were available in 2003; I bought one then and used it.
IR flood lighting has been around for a few years now in the mobile enforcement world and its use is increasing.
The H&S has been addressed too; it wasn't to difficult.
Hope you are happy with this information. smile.gif

Orpheus IR Floodlighting received Home Office Approval

TRIMMS IR lighting is an option here

This post has been edited by 122basy: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 08:41
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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 17:44
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QUOTE (justforthepictures @ Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 20:50) *
Regarding your scepticism about infra red lighting, Orpheus (that's what it's called), is currently being used by fifteen UK constabularies, every speed enforcement vehicle Police Scotland uses has Orpheus. What risk assessment issues? You park by the side of the carriageway just like the other millions of vehicles - nothing has changed - Orpheus is a very dull red glow.

It's very practical, the enforcement unit I used to work for has just purchased eight units and have changed their shift patterns to allow working until 02:00.

Going back further, I detected many thousands of vehicles in excess of the posted threshold without the use of supplementary lighting working up to 23:30. There were all kinds of possible variations that presented themselves, the vehicle behind simply lit the rear plate of the vehicle in front, whilst existing ambient light from the street lights combined with no polarising filter, maximum aperture and the low light setting on the video camera allowed the majority of approaching vehicle's plates to be recorded with ease.

And then I woke up in a damp bed and realised it was all a dream.

FTFY.

Perhaps you should sell your magic video camera to the TV companies, I'm sure they would be interested in one that can record in the dark a number plate in the middle of two bright headlights.
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bill w
post Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 21:09
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 17:44) *
Perhaps you should sell your magic video camera to the TV companies, I'm sure they would be interested in one that can record in the dark a number plate in the middle of two bright headlights.


Isn't it illegal to have bright headlights on the rear of your vehicle? wink.gif
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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 11:21
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QUOTE (bill w @ Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 21:09) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 17:44) *
Perhaps you should sell your magic video camera to the TV companies, I'm sure they would be interested in one that can record in the dark a number plate in the middle of two bright headlights.


Isn't it illegal to have bright headlights on the rear of your vehicle? wink.gif

This

QUOTE
whilst existing ambient light from the street lights combined with no polarising filter, maximum aperture and the low light setting on the video camera allowed the majority of approaching vehicle's plates to be recorded with ease.


Although if you have ever had to record anything at night without supplementary lighting the light from almost any light source including rear lights will drown anything close by, like a numberplate, especially on the relatively cheap (compared to the ones I use at work) video cameras they use in camera vans.

I have said before that vastly distorting the truth about their capabilities is the cheapest deterrent available for the police. It is a bit stupid for justforthepictures to tell ridiculous lies and expect everyone to swallow it though just because he has Googled a few technical terms.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 11:22
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justforthepictur...
post Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 13:55
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 11:21) *
Although if you have ever had to record anything at night without supplementary lighting the light from almost any light source including rear lights will drown anything close by, like a numberplate, especially on the relatively cheap (compared to the ones I use at work) video cameras they use in camera vans.

I have said before that vastly distorting the truth about their capabilities is the cheapest deterrent available for the police. It is a bit stupid for justforthepictures to tell ridiculous lies and expect everyone to swallow it though just because he has Googled a few technical terms.

You are very naive.


--------------------
'Speed Kills' simply means, hit something or someone fast enough and it will result in a fatality.
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 14:10
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QUOTE (justforthepictures @ Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 13:55) *
You are very naive.

Perhaps you should point to a public video of this "technique". There must be one or two around if it was used routinely?
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justforthepictur...
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 12:36
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 14:10) *
QUOTE (justforthepictures @ Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 13:55) *
You are very naive.

Perhaps you should point to a public video of this "technique". There must be one or two around if it was used routinely?

Whilst I respect your opinion, I have ten years of operational mobile speed enforcement experience. During which time I used four different laser speedmeters and five different associated video systems. In that period, a quick calculation totals something around 160,000 detections, a considerable percentage being after the sun had gone down.

When I originally used TSM and recorded to VHS tape, we had the addition of a white light inverter, which was activated by a switch that turned whites to black and vice versa. This worked well enough for evidential purposes, there being no requirement to identify either the colour or make/model of vehicle. All that was required was a distinguishable VRM.

As technology progressed, the quality of recorded video improved and before I changed roles, we had Bosch video cameras, that were changed in the last three months before I left to Canon. With ambient street lighting present, by switching to one of the low-light modes (I personally found the infra-red settings allowed you to stop-down and utilise more depth-of-field), you could record the rear plate of virtually every vehicle moving away from the enforcement position and the bulk of those approaching.

What you clearly don't appreciate, is that when working in the dark, we only visited those sites that experience supported as being viable. This means that we had a list of sites where good street lighting was present, married with the facility to work at an angle to approaching vehicles. So there may have been a sweeping bend in the road, or the enforcement position was in an elevated position, so the headlights of approaching vehicles weren't pointed directly into the video lens.

If you look at the following example, yes the headlights are on, but the plates can be read no 'magic' being involved or required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-ie5hQbG2s

There were some occasions where full beam made it difficult, but it worked just like in the clip.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but Googling hasn't been necessary to supply any of the terms used, or even sweat soaked dreams, I just researched my own experience.

Orpheus takes it to the next level and provides enough IR illumination to fill-in the missing information that bright headlights approaching head-on may otherwise make difficult to read.



--------------------
'Speed Kills' simply means, hit something or someone fast enough and it will result in a fatality.
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 14:51
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So there aren't any publically available videos then? Seems there would be one or two.

The clip you posted is irrelevant as you well know because the camera is well above the vehicles and thus the beam of the headlight. Perhaps there is a site where that angle and uncommonly bright street lighting exist, but not a list of locations.

It's not a matter of my opinion, it's just you change your story frequently. I wish you would stick to practical advice which you are actually very good at rather than tall stories.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 - 14:55
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