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trade tools being held, after notice to terminate given
oldstoat
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 19:19
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My son started a job approx 4 months ago as an HGV mechanic.

Recently he decided that this was not the job for him and started to look for other work.

He used job search websites and found that his job had actually been advertised.

This made him more determined to leave.

He went on two weeks shutdown just before xmas, and today he went to give the employer 1 weeks notice. as he has been succesful in obtaining another job

The emplyer has changed the locks at work and is refusing to allow my son to have his tools of the trade back. My son needs them for his new job.

What remedies does my son have, other than using bolt croppers to gain access to his tools.

This is clearly needing to be resolved asap


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post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 19:19
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mickR
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 19:30
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QUOTE (oldstoat @ Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 19:19) *
He used job search websites and found that his job had actually been advertised.

This made him more determined to leave.


Possible cause for constructive dismissal claim??

QUOTE
He went on two weeks shutdown just before xmas, and today he went to give the employer 1 weeks notice.


What made him think his employer would be there during a 2 week shutdown?

QUOTE
The emplyer has changed the locks at work and is refusing to allow my son to have his tools of the trade back. My son needs them for his new job.
What remedies does my son have, other than using bolt croppers to gain access to his tools.


Hmmm criminal damage charges wont help your son in his new job! Not sure if "self help" might be applicable in some way.

This post has been edited by mickR: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 19:32
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cp8759
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:05
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QUOTE (oldstoat @ Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 19:19) *
What remedies does my son have, other than using bolt croppers to gain access to his tools.

Call a locksmith or try and take the tools when the lockers are unlocked. What's happened to the original locks? Were they owned by your son?

Quite independently, I'd look into a constructive dismissal claim.


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mickR
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:21
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QUOTE (cp8759)
Call a locksmith or try and take the tools when the lockers are unlocked. What's happened to the original locks? Were they owned by your son?

Quite independently, I'd look into a constructive dismissal claim.


Wouldnt that be illegal As its not his workshop or are you suggesting self help?
We dont know if employervhas offered to give tools back after the 2 week shutdown finishes.

Yeah i mentioned constructive dismissal and msybe added to that possible claim for loss of earnings if he doesnt get tools back.
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oldstoat
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:30
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Possible cause for constructive dismissal claim??

Not been employed for two years. So that is out I think.

What made him think his employer would be there during a 2 week shutdown?

The workshop and owners home are on the same site..

He has said he can have the tools back in a month. There is £3000 of kit The workshop reopens on 2nd January.







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cp8759
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:31
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QUOTE (mickR @ Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:21) *
QUOTE (cp8759)
Call a locksmith or try and take the tools when the lockers are unlocked. What's happened to the original locks? Were they owned by your son?

Quite independently, I'd look into a constructive dismissal claim.


Wouldnt that be illegal As its not his workshop or are you suggesting self help?

How would it be illegal? If no damage is done and the son simply retrieves property he owns, I don't see what (criminal) laws would be broken. Theoretically the workshop could bring a civil claim for trespass, but good luck to them with that.


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mickR
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:38
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QUOTE (oldstoat @ Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:30) *
What made him think his employer would be there during a 2 week shutdown?

The workshop and owners home are on the same site..

He has said he can have the tools back in a month. There is £3000 of kit The workshop reopens on 2nd January.


What is his employer like? Aggressive violent type? Is he known to plod??
I would suggest your son attend on the second with a few mates as "witnesses" rolleyes.gif so he can collect.

Or maybe suggest to plod there maybe a breach of peace when he attempts to collect)

This post has been edited by mickR: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:41
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southpaw82
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:44
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Folks, you can't advise people to break the law (criminal or civil), so you can't advise someone to trespass. By all means point out that if he chose to enter the premises peacefully he'd be liable for trespass. Whether a locksmith would help him gain access to premises that he's not allowed to be in is a matter of conjecture - and he can't lie to the locksmith as that would be fraud.

He could report it to the police as theft, though they're unlikely to be interested. Otherwise, a civil action to recover the tools and damages for losses incurred in their unlawful detention (assuming the employer has no right to detain them).

He's not been employed long enough for a constructive unfair dismissal claim.


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oldstoat
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:54
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Folks, you can't advise people to break the law (criminal or civil), so you can't advise someone to trespass. By all means point out that if he chose to enter the premises peacefully he'd be liable for trespass. Whether a locksmith would help him gain access to premises that he's not allowed to be in is a matter of conjecture - and he can't lie to the locksmith as that would be fraud.

Would he be trespassing if he is still technically employed till the 5th January during his weeks notice period.

The tools are his own and the employer has no rights over them.

It is standard in HGV industry for mechanics to take their own tools for use on employers vehicles


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mickR
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 21:03
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Hence my suggestion to turn up on the 2nd to collect stuff, no tresspass. No legitimate cause to withold tools. If an argument or any threat ensues make sure your son calls plod before the owner!

Its standard practice in any garage for tools to be owned by employees.
If we sacked anyone or they handed in notice they may well have been asked to leave on the spot but always take their tools at the time.

This post has been edited by mickR: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 21:06
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southpaw82
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 21:40
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QUOTE (oldstoat @ Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:54) *
Would he be trespassing if he is still technically employed till the 5th January during his weeks notice period.

If the premises are locked up and he doesn’t have a means of access it sure doesn’t sound like he has any right to be there.


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oldstoat
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 21:48
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 21:40) *
QUOTE (oldstoat @ Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 20:54) *
Would he be trespassing if he is still technically employed till the 5th January during his weeks notice period.

If the premises are locked up and he doesn’t have a means of access it sure doesn’t sound like he has any right to be there.


I have advised him that since the business reopens on the 2nd January and seeing as he gave notice today at the owners home he will report for duty as normal on Thursday. (he has not been told not too)

He can then legitimately be on the premises and get his tools then. He will be with a friend to pick up and transport some of the heavier items.

This post has been edited by oldstoat: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 21:48


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southpaw82
post Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 22:18
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There you go then. I don’t see how his employer can legitimately stop him leaving with his tools.


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captain swoop
post Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 01:53
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Did he get his tools back?
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oldstoat
post Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 18:20
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QUOTE (captain swoop @ Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 01:53) *
Did he get his tools back?


Yes, but it was not due to the owner. My son turned up at 0500hrs, and waited for the first driver to arrive. The owner was waiting at the gates to let them in. My son drove in behind them , as the owner started to close the gate on him. The owner started ranting demanding to know what my son was doing. My son, said, I am here to work. The owner started saying, you are sacked. My son, walked upto the workshop, and used the keypad code, walked into the workshop, and then along with his friend loaded the van, and left. All whilst the owner was screaming, he was not allowed to have his tools.


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stamfordman
post Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 18:30
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Owner sounds like a big tool.
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cp8759
post Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 18:59
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QUOTE (oldstoat @ Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 18:20) *
My son turned up at 0500hrs, and waited for the first driver to arrive. The owner was waiting at the gates to let them in. My son drove in behind them , as the owner started to close the gate on him. The owner started ranting demanding to know what my son was doing. My son, said, I am here to work. The owner started saying, you are sacked.

Your son is entitled to work his notice period.I would get in touch asking the owner to confirm whether he is required to work the rest of his notice period or whether the owner will simply make payment in lieu of notice. Chances are there will be no reply, but of course your son could then pursue a claim, from memory this is one of the scenarios where you have a choice to either the employment tribunal or the county court.


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oldstoat
post Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 19:02
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 18:59) *
QUOTE (oldstoat @ Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 18:20) *
My son turned up at 0500hrs, and waited for the first driver to arrive. The owner was waiting at the gates to let them in. My son drove in behind them , as the owner started to close the gate on him. The owner started ranting demanding to know what my son was doing. My son, said, I am here to work. The owner started saying, you are sacked.

Your son is entitled to work his notice period.I would get in touch asking the owner to confirm whether he is required to work the rest of his notice period or whether the owner will simply make payment in lieu of notice. Chances are there will be no reply, but of course your son could then pursue a claim, from memory this is one of the scenarios where you have a choice to either the employment tribunal or the county court.


the owner had already adverised the job, about two weeks ago, which is why son was concerned about retrieving tools. He gave notice, yet has still not actually said my son is sacked and really wanted to stop son going to work. I would say his actions are enough to say, he does not require son to work notice. I suspect the pay owed will not arrive. I have advised son to send a LBA if that cenario occurs

This post has been edited by oldstoat: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 19:04


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southpaw82
post Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 21:51
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Don’t bother - just stuck in a claim with the employment tribunal for wrongful dismissal. It’s free.


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cp8759
post Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 22:45
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 21:51) *
Don’t bother - just stuck in a claim with the employment tribunal for wrongful dismissal. It’s free.

I thought that given his length of service, he can't bring a wrongful termination claim unless it's based on a protected characteristic (sex, race etc...)? As thing stand can't the owner just say he's been sacked for being sh1t at his job?

A claim for non-payment of wages on the other hand seems straightforward.


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