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Suspended Bay, out of the blue, we got a PCN but there was no sign the bay was going to be suspended
IlBrugno
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 20:19
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Hello,
thank you very much for having me.

I am not originally from the UK, so I guess a lot of what I am about to describe is due to my ignorance of the law, so please bear with me : )

On Sunday. Sep 15 we parked our car. There were no signs claiming the bay was suspended.
The following Sunday, Sep 22, we went to get our car and it wasn't there.
We called the Council but we couldn't get to talk to anyone.
We then filed a police report, as we believed the car was stolen.
The police called us back after 15 minutes telling us the Council moved our car, and to check into the TRACE system (that we weren't aware of).
We found our car in the TRACE system, the location it was dropped at, and a note saying the car was moved because it was on a motorcycle bay.
Now, I am TOTALLY sure we did not park on a motorcycle bay. I clearly remember us checking, and the bay beside the one we parked in was the only motorcycle bay.

We went to get our car and we found 2 PCN: one issued on Sep 16, the other on Sep 17, both of them identical.
The code is 21p: parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space.
I checked the two PCNs online and there was no image whatsoever.

I then appealed the PCN asking them:
- to clarify whether the car was on a suspended bay or on a motorcycle bay
- to ask for image proofs, as I believed we weren't parked in a suspended bay

This is what I got from them:
"You were given a Penalty Charge Notice for parking in a bay that had been suspended. There were yellow signs saying
'Warning. Parking suspended. No waiting, loading, unloading'. Bays are generally suspended to allow for roadworks or large
delivery vehicles.
It is up to drivers to check on their car every day to make sure that their parking bay is not being suspended.
Please be advised that photos are secondary evidence and are not mandatory. A lack of photographic evidence does not
invalidate the Penalty Charge Notice which was issued correctly."

What I believe has happened is: they suspended the bay on Sep 16 and fined us. Then they fined us the day after, and on the third day, they moved the car away.

Now, I did not even know a bay could be suspended out of the blue.
I honestly find it ridiculous that one has to check the car every single day to see whether the bad had been suspended.

Is there anything we can do? Shall I just pay and shut up?

Thank you very much

Regards

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post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 20:19
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Incandescent
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:02
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Bays can be suspended "out of the blue" for emergency works, but normally some days notice is required. The norm for notice is about 5 days, so clearly, by not going back to your car for a week having not seen any notices, you ended up getting towed as well as two PCNs. The 2nd PCN should be cancelled for "continuous contravention" and you should appeal this one on that basis. There is then the matter of the tow and the 1st PCN. By getting towed and then paying to get the car back, it is a total no-brainer to appeal all the way to London Tribunals as you have already paid all there is to pay and could get some or all of it back. First you have to submit reps to the council; only when they reject your reps can you appeal to London Tribunals at no cost to yourself.

You have not told us any detail of the location, so can you please post up the 1st PCN, and give us a GSV link to the location telling us exactly where you parked. You say there were no signs, but there should have been some on the date you parked the car, if the first PCN was issued a day later. If there were none the council have acted very unfairly. They should have a log of the cars present when the signs were erected. The only question I would have is - being not from the UK do you know what a suspension sign looks like ? It would have been a bright yellow sign, very prominent.

Final question is - is it your car, and are you the registered keeper ?

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:07
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:07
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We need to see all the documents you have and any confirmation that the car was moved from the Motorcycle bay. With that we can claim that the vehicle was parked their by someone in control of the vehicle without your permission


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IlBrugno
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:25
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 22:02) *
Bays can be suspended "out of the blue" for emergency works, but normally some days notice is required. The norm for notice is about 5 days, so clearly, by not going back to your car for a week having not seen any notices, you ended up getting towed as well as two PCNs. The 2nd PCN should be cancelled for "continuous contravention" and you should appeal this one on that basis. There is then the matter of the tow and the 1st PCN. By getting towed and then paying to get the car back, it is a total no-brainer to appeal all the way to London Tribunals as you have already paid all there is to pay and could get some or all of it back. First you have to submit reps to the council; only when they reject your reps can you appeal to London Tribunals at no cost to yourself.

You have not told us any detail of the location, so can you please post up the 1st PCN, and give us a GSV link to the location telling us exactly where you parked. You say there were no signs, but there should have been some on the date you parked the car, if the first PCN was issued a day later. If there were none the council have acted very unfairly. They should have a log of the cars present when the signs were erected. The only question I would have is - being not from the UK do you know what a suspension sign looks like ? It would have been a bright yellow sign, very prominent.

Final question is - is it your car, and are you the registered keeper ?

Actually I did not have to pay to get my car back. They moved it to another road and I could get it back freely.

The PCN reads as follows

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5192/VC6Llv.jpg

Here is the GSV link
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4927635,-...6384!8i8192
we were parked where the "kaymac" van is in the GSV link.

I haven't seen a suspension sign yet, but I've seen a lot of traffic realted warning signs, all bright and yellow, so I believe we would have seen it, if it was there. As you can see from the GSV link, the place we parked in is very small.

I already appealed to the Council and they have already refused my appeal.May I appeal a second time (at least for the cancellation of the 2nd PCN)?

The car is registered to my girlfriend, as I unfortunately do not have a driving license (and I have a blue badge for me, that was in the car, not sure it matters though!) and I appealed using her name.

This post has been edited by IlBrugno: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 22:41
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:27
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no we need images transcripts have caught us all out in the past

All of them both PCN's your challenges and the rejections. Yes you can appeal ( the correct term is to make representations) and then if needed go on to independent adjudication

but we cannot help without docs

Also go online and get the photos for both PCN's ( council website )

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:31


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IlBrugno
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:32
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 22:07) *
We need to see all the documents you have and any confirmation that the car was moved from the Motorcycle bay. With that we can claim that the vehicle was parked their by someone in control of the vehicle without your permission


Here is what TRACE reads:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5936/kowy6c.jpg

I posted what the PCN reads in the previous reply.

This post has been edited by IlBrugno: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 22:40
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cp8759
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:34
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QUOTE (IlBrugno @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 22:32) *
I posted what the PCN reads in the previous reply.

You need to take a picture of the PCN and upload it, rather than posting a transcript. The same goes for any letters received from the council, and the photos taken by the CEO. Upload them to an external site like imgur.com and either post a link on here, or use the BB codes if you know how.


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IlBrugno
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:35
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 22:27) *
no we need images transcripts have caught us all out in the past

All of them both PCN's your challenges and the rejections. Yes you can appeal ( the correct term is to make representations) and then if needed go on to independent adjudication

but we cannot help without docs

Also go online and get the photos for both PCN's ( council website )


Ok, do you want me to remove the transcripts?

I will post the 2 PCNs, the challenges and the rejections.

(on the council website, there were no images associated with the 2 PCNs)

Cheers
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:48
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the trace info is key get a screenshot


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IlBrugno
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 22:39
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 22:48) *
the trace info is key get a screenshot


Here all the related docs:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7027/N7CQHX.jpg - the first PCN
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6446/Y65El8.jpg - the second PCN
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5936/kowy6c.jpg - TRACE
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5192/VC6Llv.jpg - the first rejection
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5172/4rc1Tv.jpg - the second rejection

unfortunately i do not jave written track of the representations I made, and neither I can find their contents in the Council's website
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 06:52
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OP-----Take a screenshot of the Council page which indicates there are no images. This is a key ground of appeal since the Council cannot provide evidence of the contravention (a photo of your car adjacent to a suspension sign). In using their website to facilitate appeals they must IMO either put up or shut up.


The second ground of appeal is that your car was legally parked before the suspension sign was erected and the Council should be able to substantiate this by reference to their suspension log which will show the registrations of every vehicle in situ at that time. It therefore remained lawfully parked unless and until reasonable notice was given of a forthcoming change. I would not regard the notice in your case as reasonable in the absence of some good explanation (emergency works).


The third issue is "continuous contravention" which means that, if the car was not moved between the 1st and 2nd PCN, it's one contravention. Ergo the 2nd PCN should be cancelled.



I would take this all the way to adjudication


Mick
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hcandersen
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 08:05
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Full letters please, not just extracts. Among other things, we must see whether the discount was re-offered.

This is the enforcement process

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process

The next notice, the Notice to Owner, will be sent to the registered keeper.

So, are their details up to date?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 08:09
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Car was relocated so a good bet signs went up while car was in bay. Hounslow has a pound but I don't think we've had many towing cases there.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 08:10
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The usual Fob-Off letters in response to informal reps.

OP, the process is rather convoluted. After these rejections, if you want to take the matter further, rather than just pay-up, you will have to wait for the Notice to Owner for each PCN, and submit reps again. These reps tend to be looked at more carefully. Councils ruthlessly game the system and bat-off all informal reps because most (>95%) of people then just cough-up, so its a 'nice little earner' for them. At the formal stage, at which point the discount option is lost, they look more carefully as if they reject, the appellant can take them to London Tribunals at no extra cost.

So, as MMV says, I would take them all the way.

A final note - is your girlfriend's address on the registration document for the car (V5C) up-to-date ? The Notice to Owner is sent to that address.
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cp8759
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 09:30
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QUOTE (IlBrugno @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 22:35) *
Ok, do you want me to remove the transcripts?

Yes please, they take up space and don't really help.

QUOTE (IlBrugno @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 22:35) *
(on the council website, there were no images associated with the 2 PCNs)

You might need to email the council and ask for them, or they might get uploaded after a day or two.


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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 11:30
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The trace info shows without doubt that you did not park the car there. nor did you give permission for that move The council cannot put your car in contravention and then penalize you


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hcandersen
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 16:37
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@PMB, both PCNs issued in respect of King's Place. Car then moved to Marlborough Road from whence it was recovered by the OP.

I cannot see a problem with this. Authority allowed to move vehicle displaying a BB to another location on a road, which they did.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 18:02
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 17:37) *
@PMB, both PCNs issued in respect of King's Place. Car then moved to Marlborough Road from whence it was recovered by the OP.

I cannot see a problem with this. Authority allowed to move vehicle displaying a BB to another location on a road, which they did.



Ahh a bit of a brain fart, so what we need is council photos


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stamfordman
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 18:14
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Ah - didn't realise it is a BB case - in which case my relocation rather than tow to pound point falls.

As an aside, it seems Hounslow is bit fed up with some BB holders:


Under current legislation vehicles displaying either a Blue Badge or a Motability tax disc cannot be removed by a parking enforcement authority. However, there is currently on going consultation between Local Authorities, London Councils, Transport for London and the Department for Transport to review this status.
It is unfortunate to note that there are an increasing number of legitimate blue badge holders who persistently park in contravention of the parking regulations in the knowledge that their vehicle cannot be removed. There are also an increasing number of blue badge holders who are persistent evaders. When a vehicle, which has been identified for removal due to location parked, or because of persistent evader status, cannot be removed due to a blue badge being displayed the relevant information will be passed to the Service Development section within Parking Enforcement for monitoring purposes.
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 19:01
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I remember the lapsed SoS Guidance and removing a vehicle displaying a BB was a non-starter.

If the last bit posted by stamf is the Council's current protocol then that's the line to take above all others --they cannot act against their own procedures since it would be unfair and prejudicial. A disabled person traipsing the streets looking for their vehicle is just not on.

Mick
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