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Contravention code 27, Croydon Council
bizon_78
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 22:50
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Member No.: 105,765



Good evening everybody,

Thank you for taking me on board as a registered member.

It's such a shame as i found your website so late...

Anyway, I am seeking your help regards penalty charge I was given as per my title - contravention code 27 - parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a dropped footway.

Just to keep it simple - I stopped there to unload my car with heavy football equipment. As live next door literally I was just transporting those goods to my flat and coming back for the rest of the stuff. Definitely less then 3 - 5 minutes later I am back to the car and there is a ticket there. So I sent them first appeal through the Croydon Council website as below:



''Good morning,

I’d like to appeal regards my Penalty Charge Notice. I must say that I am fully aware of dropped kerb and parking adjacent to a dropped footway rules which I always adhere to as a driver.

However I live literally next door to that place and I can confirm that as per picture, this dropped kerb doesn’t lead to any residential areas, driveways or cycling path. It doesn’t lead to anywhere really and I wasn’t obstructing or blocking anything.
Is it an old spot which used to lead to the house which was there before the block of flats, perhaps? Anyway, we have an official dropped kerb few yards down the road which is opposite an entrance to that block which I understand and respect. Most importantly we have them on that road pretty much everywhere as they are leading to residential areas and I never park there or even stop.

The main thing is I don’t park there anyway – just in case of what could have happened even though there are cars parked in that right spot whole weekend from Saturday 7pm through Sunday, right there where I got NCP. I’ve never seen a ticket there but I do see plenty of tickets being issued on my road.

As it was after 7pm and it was a single lane I stopped there to unload my car only – coming back from charity football tournament I had lots of equipment to carry. Going up the road from that place we have have a double yellow lane which prevented me from stopping anywhere else instead – all the official parking spaces where taken.

I hope I clarified circumstances of my appealing and looking forward to hearing from you,

Kind regards,


You can see their reply on the image marked ''letter 1''

Letter 1''

This is my reply back to them by email:

''Good morning,

Thank you for replying back to me.

I have received your letter ref.........

You stated that you carefully considered what I had to say but you didn’t really reply back to anything what was important there. I am sorry to say that but I believe copy/paste generic statements regards contravention (27).

You confirmed in your reply, reason why I got the ticket which wasn’t even necessary as I expressed myself clearly to you that I understand that in my first email.

Also when I stated that others have parked there on daily basis it was only to point out the fact that this spot is very controversial. Obviously if there is no officer you don’t get a ticket but when I see people getting tickets for parking on the double yellow on the same road but not on that actual spot with single yellow after 7pm.

You did not refer to the fact that it is an old place with a lowered curb and the new one is a few yards down, literally a few yards down. Nobody makes dropped curb for people within a few yards of each other. Specifically, the one I am talking about serves us people living there in front of the block of flats and not the old one where I got a ticket.

So it is not even a safe place for people to cross the road anymore or with prams or disabled because it is on the bend of the road. It does not lead anywhere, literally anywhere and I didn’t block anything. As I wrote earlier, I have lived there for years and this is an old place before the block of flats was built. You also did not answer to my statement that I was unloading the car and the officer's observation lasted only 1min!

Each such an offense should be treated individually because, as in this case, it should not take place.''


This is their second reply to me, marked as ''letter 2'' on the image

Letter 2


And again, my response to that:


''Dear Parking Services,


Thank you for your recent letter.


In response to your first letter, I wanted to draw your attention to how generally you treated my objections to the validity of the PCN I received.

In that letter you referred only to two objections I had, and in your opinion, they did not play a part in the cancellation of PCN.

When I pointed out the fact that it was not professional, I got the answer that the decision was made and pretty much I shouldn’t really be writing back to you.

I would like to mention here that even with an informal appeal you should make sure that you are obliged get to answer to all of my objections that I provided and not only the ones that suited you best quoting general empowerment of the Traffic Management Act 2004.

And I do not mean here whether or not this penalty should apply to me. I should be clearly explained everything the right way. What may be very simple fact to you It doesn’t necessarily be to me. On the end of the day you are legally representing parking services, this may not be my field of expertise.

I have two days left to pay discounted rate and I'm still not sure if this PCN is valid in my case – not because I don’t agree, merely because you left me with basic explanation of you decision.

And after your first letter, I should have no hesitations left – either to pay once you answered to all my objections or appeal if I still believe I am right.

Unfortunately I can’t do any as you still didn’t provide me with full explanations even though I received two letters from you so far, which really did not bring anything new to my attention, only made me sure that you did not approach my case individually.

Frankly, I at least received some feedback on two other objections that I took into account as being relevant to the possible cancellation of PCN.

Leaving aside everything else – I’d like to draw your attention here to the fact that all the time you use the term ‘’to park and not ‘’to stop’’ as it was in my case. I stopped there – I didn’t park my car there.

Anyway I clearly wrote in the first letter, that I was unloading heavy football equipment as together with my husband we run a charity football club. You did not relate to the loading/unloading query at all nor to the fact that I live ‘’next door’’. I also stated that there were no parking spaces available near and short distance from the place I stopped. There was also a double yellow line further down the road preventing me from stopping.

A loading/unloading is officially permitted on dropped footway) as per Traffic Management Act 2004 and is a valid ground for appealing as per below statement from the Traffic Management

Act 2004:

‘’ May accept representations’’

• On a waiting prohibition or in a controlled bay:

• If evidence is available or provided to show:

• Goods being delivered or collected were heavy, bulky, or numerous and it would be unreasonable to expect them to be carried from ‘legal’ parking place.
• Loading/unloading activity was adjacent to the premises concerned.
• Loading/unloading activity was timely (includes checking goods and paperwork, but not delayed by unrelated activity)

• If in the course of business, including commercial delivery/collections, couriers, multi drop parcel carriers, removal services, etc.


You referred to my complaint that the entire observation lasted only 60 seconds where you answered that in this case the CEO can give PCNs
straightaway which again is not entirely true as per below statement from the Traffic Management Act 2004 – Code of Practice


Let me commence with an extract of that Code of Practice:-


OBSERVATION TIMES

46) Some contraventions are ‘instant’ and a PCN can be issued immediately. These include ‘absolute’ contraventions, such as parking on the footway where this is prohibited) and locations where there are either no or extremely few but obvious exceptions to a general rule (such as stopping where parking, loading and unloading are prohibited).

47) In other cases there may be sufficient exemptions to a general rule as to cause some doubt as to whether a contravention has occurred at the time of the initial appearance of the parking attendant. A good example is where loading and unloading on a yellow line or in a loading box / bay is allowed. In these circumstances a period of observation can help to establish whether or not an exemption applies. Five minutes is the generally accepted period of observation, although consideration could be given to extending this period for commercial vehicles, where it is more likely that loading / unloading is taking place. While a PCN may be issued before the end of the observation period, the authority will need to have much stronger evidence to rebut an assertion that the vehicle was exempt, for example, because it was loading, than if an observation period was included.


Those examples are the simple things you fail to establish from my previous letters. You’ve ignored or failed to acknowledge some of my grounds replying back to me twice.

I strongly believe that above examples should be dealt with a different approach and absolutely not to be left for any formal appeals.

As stated in my letters I am very disappointed with what has been communicated to me so far without any effort whatsoever in challenging all my grounds.

I now wish to take opportunity to make a formal complaint against ‘’The Authority’’ who has been dealing with my case and I request to be provided with the details of that ‘’The Authority’’ and actual contact details of the institution/person/authority I can address my formal complaint concerning the issues stated.

Please do not confuse it with making formal representations concerning the issue of the penalty charge as this is completely different matter now.

Yours sincerely,''


Never heard from them since, apart from ''Notice To Owner'' letter which I received few weeks ago. Unfortunately I was away and have now only 3 or 4 days left to appeal...


My main concerns are that they didn't challenge ''ALL'' my grounds/arguments whether they were relevant or not first time. Wasting my time, their time rather pointing out quickly everything I said and attach to it relevant regulations. Instead of that, it went to the point I had to appeal 3 times to the same authority rather than somebody who is above them.

And I know it could be done better, in much more professional way and I am talking from experience . I got a penalty for road contravention 10 years ago. I also appealed but the reply back was so professionally written and backed up with full evidence that none of my grounds were valid. Didn't have a problem with paying that ticket at all. I learned from that mistake and never happened again.

This case however is absolutely rubbish and I am still not convinced to pay it.

Any advice would be really appreciated. Many thanks, Pawel


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post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 22:50
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bizon_78
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 19:43
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QUOTE (mummyof3 @ Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 21:51) *
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3391891,-0....6384!8i8192

Plenty of decent parking spots nearby especially when you were parked so close to the bend



No, not at all at that time of the day. Bear in mind you can't park on the left site of the road.
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 14:26
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If you'd parked a few feet further forwards you would have been ok:







I don't think you have much hope of fighting the contravention itself, your best bet is to hope they mess up the Notice of Rejection.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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bizon_78
post Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 15:10
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Member No.: 105,765



I know but that van wasn't there that far away from me. There was another car much closer. I was unloading my car so didn't pay attention to the lowered kerb at that time as I parked my car elsewhere later on.. :-(

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hcandersen
post Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 17:16
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Pay the discount by 10 October IMO.

I cannot see why you would want to take this case to adjudication when the odds as regards the contravention are so heavily stacked against you and you would risk another £65.

But if you decide to, there are flaws in the NOR:
1. It misstates the 28-day period, in fact the correct description is nowhere to be found;
2. It therefore misstates the period for making an appeal on this point;
3. It further misstates this period by failing to mention that the adjudicator may in his absolute discretion register a late appeal.

You might succeed on the above - but adjudicators can be, shall we say, unpredictable. IMO, the repeated and precise details of the 28-day period indicate clearly that the authority fail to understand this fundamental aspect of the regs and that the adj should allow your appeal to teach them the error of their ways, thus benefiting other motorists: a chance for an adj to perform a wider good.

For your benefit, the 28-day period is defined as: no later than the end of the period of 28 days beginning on the date of service.

NOT 'from the date of service'.

And to make matters worse, they refer to you sending your appeal ..'you have 28 days from the date of service to do this'

No you don't. The regs refer to 'making' an appeal. This means receipt by the tribunal within the 28-day period. So, if you only send your appeal on their 28th day, you would be at least 3 days too late, possibly more depending upon whether you received the NOR on a Friday or Saturday. By the way, what is the date of the NOR?
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bizon_78
post Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 21:12
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Thank you so much for taking time to reply to me.

The date of the NOR is 25.09.2019.

It is not even about the money. I would happily pay the charge if they were able to properly challenge my grounds in first place. It took them 3 letters back and fourth to comment on my loading/unloading grounds and yet in the NOR letter they stated that loading is not allowed there.
I just don't know what to do as it's not only about me but future motorists who they will treat the same way - no proper explanation, referrals to regulations etc. It is shocking in my opinion.
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