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Reissued NTO sent to wrong address
Ashirus
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 12:09
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Here's a good one:

June 2019: PCN issued. car registered to address X
September 2019: V5C changed address of car in question to address Y
October 2019: Charge cert received at address X, so TE9 sent & accepted as no NTO received (even at address X)
November 2019: NTO reissued to address X

Does the reissued NTO have to be to the correct new address Y?

Is this a procedural impropriety?

thanks,
Ash
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post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 12:09
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Neil B
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 12:13
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What address did you put on the TE9?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 12:28
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OP, your account is confusing and incomplete.

PCN issued by hand/post on ***, you must specify, regarding ******* contravention;
NTO issued ***** to address A;
Charge Certificate issued to address A;
OfR issued on ***** to address A;
TE9 submitted on ***** giving address ??? as your address?
TEC's revoking order addressed to ????

NTO dated ** sent to address A.

Dates are days, not months.

And if NTO addressed to A, how did you find out as you live at Y?
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Ashirus
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:17
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 12:28) *
OP, your account is confusing and incomplete.

PCN issued by hand/post on ***, you must specify, regarding ******* contravention;
NTO issued ***** to address A;
Charge Certificate issued to address A;
OfR issued on ***** to address A;
TE9 submitted on ***** giving address ??? as your address?
TEC's revoking order addressed to ????

NTO dated ** sent to address A.

Dates are days, not months.

And if NTO addressed to A, how did you find out as you live at Y?


OK, sorry. Here's extra clarity

1. PCN issued by hand for parking f
2, NTO issued to

Here's a good one:

20 June 2019: PCN issued. car registered to address X for Contravention 05 "Parked after the expiry of paid time"
6 September 2019: V5C reissued by DVLA with address Y (new address)
11 September 2019: Charge cert received at address X
Sometime in October 2019: OfR issued (says the council)
11 November: TE9 sent declaring NTO not received (even at address X). Address X specified on TE9 was address X (with note that it's now a wrong address).
16 November 2019: NTO reissued to address X

We knew that Charge Cert / Te3 etc issued by seeing it on the council's PCN website and then enquiring the new residents of address X (the old address) who confirmed no NTO received originally and forwarded us the new NTO.

Perhaps issuing the original CC to the wrong address, there's already a procedural impropriety, but either way, now that the NTO has been reissued is that grounds enough?

thanks,
Ash


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Neil B
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:21
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QUOTE (Ashirus @ Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:17) *
Address X specified on TE9 was address X (with note that it's now a wrong address).

Why? There is no opportunity for a "note" on TE9.

Can't see you have a complaint.

Are you still in time to make representations?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Ashirus
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:29
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Edited

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:21) *
QUOTE (Ashirus @ Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:17) *
Address X specified on TE9 was address X (with note that it's now a wrong address).

Why? There is no opportunity for a "note" on TE9.


Why did I put the old address? Because I thought it has to match the OfR address.

Why did I put a note? Because I thought it would help clarify the address is out of date. I simply wrote "(WRONG ADDRESS)" in the address field after the (old) address.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:21) *
Can't see you have a complaint.


So you're saying the NTO only has to be issued to the address of the registered keeper at the time of the PCN being issued, and subsequent notices (NTO, CC, OfR) can be sent to an old RK address even if it's changed in the meanwhile?

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:21) *
Are you still in time to make representations?


Yes, but not certain of that succeeding as proof has been mislaid, so hoping to rely on procedural impropriety.

This post has been edited by Ashirus: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:38
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Neil B
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 03:16
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QUOTE (Ashirus @ Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:29) *
Why did I put the old address? Because I thought it has to match the OfR address.

A lot of people have been fooled by that note on TE9. (Including me! ohmy.gif ohmy.gif )
It actually says the details above must match the OfR.

Address is below.

QUOTE (Ashirus @ Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:29) *
So you're saying the NTO only has to be issued to the address of the registered keeper at the time of the PCN being issued, and subsequent notices (NTO, CC, OfR) can be sent to an old RK address even if it's changed in the meanwhile?

No, I haven't said that.
But you didn't inform them and your TE9 misled them. (the note would be ignored by TEC).

Let members look at the NtO
And tell us the story.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Ashirus
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 03:31
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 03:16) *
QUOTE (Ashirus @ Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:29) *
Why did I put the old address? Because I thought it has to match the OfR address.

A lot of people have been fooled by that note on TE9. (Including me! ohmy.gif ohmy.gif )
It actually says the details above must match the OfR.

Address is below.

QUOTE (Ashirus @ Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 14:29) *
So you're saying the NTO only has to be issued to the address of the registered keeper at the time of the PCN being issued, and subsequent notices (NTO, CC, OfR) can be sent to an old RK address even if it's changed in the meanwhile?

No, I haven't said that.
But you didn't inform them and your TE9 misled them. (the note would be ignored by TEC).

Let members look at the NtO
And tell us the story.



So interestingly, the court sent instructions to reissue NTO to both address X and address Y! So presumably, the council was also told of both addresses.

The actual defence is that I was loading. I have mislaid the loading note but hopefully will find it before tomorrow which is the deadline to reply.

And to preempt another question: Why did I pay initially (for an hour, expired 10:37am) if I was loading anyway? Force of habit but I didn't have to pay anything!

Here's the NTO:
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Neil B
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 06:34
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QUOTE (Ashirus @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 03:31) *
before tomorrow which is the deadline to reply.

Deadline is 16th.

QUOTE (Ashirus @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 03:31) *
So interestingly, the court sent instructions to reissue NTO to both address X and address Y! So presumably, the council was also told of both addresses.

I'm a bit lost. How would the court know about address Y ?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Ashirus
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 12:29
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 06:34) *
QUOTE (Ashirus @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 03:31) *
before tomorrow which is the deadline to reply.

Deadline is 16th.


You don't miss a trick, do you smile.gif Ok, Sunday then.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 06:34) *
QUOTE (Ashirus @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 03:31) *
So interestingly, the court sent instructions to reissue NTO to both address X and address Y! So presumably, the council was also told of both addresses.

I'm a bit lost. How would the court know about address Y ?


I don't know! I guess they looked up the correct address of the registered keeper.




TBH I thought this was a simple question:

If a reissued NTO was never sent to the correct registered keeper's address, isn't this a procedural impropriety that I would win in Tribunal? (No matter what my actual defence against the PCN is.)
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Neil B
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 21:18
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QUOTE (Ashirus @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 12:29) *
TBH I thought this was a simple question:

If a reissued NTO was never sent to the correct registered keeper's address, isn't this a procedural impropriety that I would win in Tribunal? (No matter what my actual defence against the PCN is.)

From what you've said, I don't think so.

Others might disagree.

Explain 'loading' please.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Ashirus
post Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 12:59
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 21:18) *
QUOTE (Ashirus @ Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 12:29) *
TBH I thought this was a simple question:

If a reissued NTO was never sent to the correct registered keeper's address, isn't this a procedural impropriety that I would win in Tribunal? (No matter what my actual defence against the PCN is.)

From what you've said, I don't think so.

Others might disagree.

Explain 'loading' please.


Loading goods which is allowed in residential bays in this borough
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hcandersen
post Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 17:03
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So interestingly, the court sent instructions to reissue NTO to both address X and address Y! So presumably, the council was also told of both addresses.

Where are these instructions?

Where is the revoking order?

A few objective items of evidence would be useful as opposed to an endless stream of unsupported narrative.

By way of example:

the enforcement authority concerned may serve a notice (“a notice to owner”) on the person who appears to them to have been the owner of the vehicle when the alleged contravention occurred. (General Regs 19(1))

"owner”, in relation to a vehicle, means the person by whom the vehicle is kept, which in the case of a vehicle registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c. 22) is presumed (unless the contrary is proved) to be the person in whose name the vehicle is registered;
(TMA s92(1))

So, the RK is a presumption.
Presumptions are challengeable;
You could have notified the authority that you'd moved address. But whether the revoking order could be construed as notifying the authority may only be resolved once we've seen it!


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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 17:50
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+1

If it can be proved that 2 NTOs were sent this must be bad for duplicity.

Mick
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cp8759
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 19:36
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 17:50) *
+1

If it can be proved that 2 NTOs were sent this must be bad for duplicity.

Mick I think you mean double jeopardy rather than duplicity. Duplicity would be 1 NTO accusing you of 2 contraventions, rather than 2 NTOs accusing you of one.

The court doesn't instruct the council to issue anything, it's up to the council to decide whether to issue a new NtO and if so, where to send it. I am extremely sceptical that two NtOs have been sent, unless maybe one was a duplicate sent for information only.


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Neil B
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 19:47
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 19:36) *
I am extremely sceptical that two NtOs have been sent,

Me too.
Especially as neither TEC nor the council would know the second address (according to OP's posts).


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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Ashirus
post Wed, 25 Dec 2019 - 23:17
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They didn't send two NTOs, just one to old address. But court sent two confirmations of TE9 (which I can't find atm to post).

anyway it's all moot as council have cancelled ticket
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