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Hackney Mare Street No Left turn
jonjon135
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:20
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Hi guys advice needed, I got 2 PCN's for Hackney for the Mare Street timed left turn like this thread

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=122055

my situation is that I have a leased car, I contacted my lease company after receiving admin charges for PCN's, they said
first PCN

Date of contravention: 21/06/18
Date of notice: 19/07/18
Lease company received: 23/07/18

Second PCN

Date of contravention: 22/06/18
Date of notice: 19/07/18
Lease company received: 23/07/18

I received admin charge letters from lease company 10/08/17

Does the 28 day rule apply here too?
Can I challenge now or wait till Hackney send me the new adjusted PCNs then challenge.

Thanks in advance.
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post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:20
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stamfordman
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:43
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also see these:


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=121710

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=121690


I think your two are out of time.

I can tell you that Hackney is reviewing signage and already there are two sign in place. I drove past there yesterday and the sign by the junction is badly obscured by a tree.
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jonjon135
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:51
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 19:43) *
also see these:


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=121710

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=121690


I think your two are out of time.

I can tell you that Hackney is reviewing signage and already there are two sign in place. I drove past there yesterday and the sign by the junction is badly obscured by a tree.


Can I appeal now or wait for the new PCN's address to me to arrive, just a bit confused because its a leased car.

This post has been edited by jonjon135: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:52
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stamfordman
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:53
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No - nothing you can do until you get PCNs in your name.

You did well to get dates from lease co.
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 20:34
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This one is liable to get messy because the Council will contend that they have a right to issue new PCNs under the legislation. All the hire company had to do was to identify themselves as such and transfer liability to trigger such action by the Council--2(2) here:-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/schedule/1/enacted

The procedure specified by the legislation has not been followed as regards service and therefore we want any new PCNs set aside for procedural impropriety. This is common law concept of PI not what we are used to dealing with.
If the OP can get copies of the original PCNs, hopefully with the hire company receipt stamp on them, that would be compelling evidence.
Mick

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Enceladus
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 14:43
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 19:43) *
I can tell you that Hackney is reviewing signage and already there are two sign in place. I drove past there yesterday and the sign by the junction is badly obscured by a tree.

Do you mean two new signs? Or is there an additional sign to the one on the corner now in place?

There is supposed to be an advanced warning sign approaching the junction and also the sign on the corner? Is there? And do you know if it was in-situ in June?

Thanks,
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stamfordman
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 15:22
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 15:43) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 19:43) *
I can tell you that Hackney is reviewing signage and already there are two sign in place. I drove past there yesterday and the sign by the junction is badly obscured by a tree.

Do you mean two new signs? Or is there an additional sign to the one on the corner now in place?

There is supposed to be an advanced warning sign approaching the junction and also the sign on the corner? Is there? And do you know if it was in-situ in June?



I saw only two signs as described. They are near to each other. I don't know if the advance one was put up later.

PS: 13,819 PCNs and counting....

http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/news/hackn...3-819-1-5659670

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 15:29
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jonjon135
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 05:33
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Hi all

Got one of 2 PCN now, Date of contravention 22/06/18, Date of this notice 11/09/18, received at my home address 14/09/18.
Still waiting for PCN for the 21/06/18.

Can you please point me in the right direction on how to appeal against this, would the dates be a good reason? Since its more than 2 months apart from date of contravention
to date of notice issued, even though it was passed to my lease company first.

Any help is much appreciated.

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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 06:57
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As regards the legislation you have to contend that the original PCNs served on the hire company were out of time.

You then contend that the Council has no legal right to serve fresh PCNs on you because of that illegality --they were therefore acting ultra vires. Not only that but you would have been an unwitting victim of their incompetence had the hire firm not given you the appropriate dates of service.

In common law terms there is a procedural impropriety :-

"A decision suffers from procedural impropriety if in the process of its making the procedures prescribed by statute have not been followed or if the "rules of natural justice" have not been adhered to".

That means the original PCNs were served out of time and they are trying to take advantage of you illegally.

Give them what you got from the hire firm regarding the original PCNs and insist that the new ones to you be cancelled.

Mick

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Enceladus
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 11:34
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QUOTE (jonjon135 @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:20) *
I received admin charge letters from lease company 10/08/17

Ask the lease company for the dates of the Notices of Acceptance that they had from Hackney confirming that the original PCNs were cancelled. Better yet copies of the notices, that is if they don't impose swingeing charges to provide.

BTW As of last Friday, three out of every four Mare St/Richmond Rd cases that are appealed to the Adjudicator are not contested by Hackney and hence are automatically allowed. Of the remainder that proceed three out of every four cases are refused and only one out of every four is allowed. The latter mostly due to procedural errors on the part of Hackney.

So I would appeal both PCNs all the way. And make the point that had you received the first PCN in a timely manner then you wouldn't have fallen foul on the second occasion.

Review the other topics and put everything that's relevant into your representations. Post up a draft here before you submit.

Check the status of each PCN on the website and take screenshots of what it says about the amounts due. Please report back

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 11:50
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jonjon135
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 18:48
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 12:34) *
QUOTE (jonjon135 @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 18:20) *
I received admin charge letters from lease company 10/08/17

Ask the lease company for the dates of the Notices of Acceptance that they had from Hackney confirming that the original PCNs were cancelled. Better yet copies of the notices, that is if they don't impose swingeing charges to provide.

BTW As of last Friday, three out of every four Mare St/Richmond Rd cases that are appealed to the Adjudicator are not contested by Hackney and hence are automatically allowed. Of the remainder that proceed three out of every four cases are refused and only one out of every four is allowed. The latter mostly due to procedural errors on the part of Hackney.

So I would appeal both PCNs all the way. And make the point that had you received the first PCN in a timely manner then you wouldn't have fallen foul on the second occasion.

Review the other topics and put everything that's relevant into your representations. Post up a draft here before you submit.

Check the status of each PCN on the website and take screenshots of what it says about the amounts due. Please report back


Shall I just challenge with reason of original PCNs served on the hire company were out of time or everything else including in the badly position signs?

Thanks again
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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 19:53
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QUOTE (jonjon135 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 06:33) *
Hi all

Got one of 2 PCN now, Date of contravention 22/06/18, Date of this notice 11/09/18, received at my home address 14/09/18.
Still waiting for PCN for the 21/06/18.

Can you please point me in the right direction on how to appeal against this, would the dates be a good reason? Since its more than 2 months apart from date of contravention
to date of notice issued, even though it was passed to my lease company first.

Any help is much appreciated.

Upload the PCNs, both sides of all pages.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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jonjon135
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 05:33
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 20:53) *
QUOTE (jonjon135 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 06:33) *
Hi all

Got one of 2 PCN now, Date of contravention 22/06/18, Date of this notice 11/09/18, received at my home address 14/09/18.
Still waiting for PCN for the 21/06/18.

Can you please point me in the right direction on how to appeal against this, would the dates be a good reason? Since its more than 2 months apart from date of contravention
to date of notice issued, even though it was passed to my lease company first.

Any help is much appreciated.

Upload the PCNs, both sides of all pages.


Sure

Attached File(s)
Attached File  PCN_2018.pdf ( 966.69K ) Number of downloads: 68
 
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cp8759
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 13:07
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Grounds 2 & 3 Herr can be used http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1411505


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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jonjon135
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:58
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Ok guys first attempt at appeal.
Suggestions please.

Ground 1: The amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: The PCN was served out of time:

The Penalty Charge Notice is dated 19 July 2018 and it alleges that a contravention took place on 22 June 2018. As service is deemed to occur two working days after the date of the notice, and 19 July 2018 was a Thursday, service is deemed to have taken place on 23 July 2018, i.e. 33 days after the date of the alleged contravention.

Section 6 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides, is so far as is relevant, that:

"6 Limitation on service of penalty charge notice
(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, no penalty charge notice may be served under this Act after the expiry of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention or failure to comply occurred."

None of the limited exception to this rule apply in this case so the PCN was served out of time, it follows that the amount payable is nil.
Hackney Council has no legal right to serve fresh PCNs on me because of that illegality –Hackney Council were therefore acting ultra vires. I have been an unwitting victim of Hackney Council’s incompetence had the hire firm not given me the appropriate dates of service.

In common law terms there is a procedural impropriety :-

"A decision suffers from procedural impropriety if in the process of its making the procedures prescribed by statute have not been followed or if the "rules of natural justice" have not been adhered to".

That means the original PCNs were served out of time and Hackney Council are trying to take advantage of me illegally and the new PCNs to me should be cancelled.

Ground 2: The amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: The PCN does not state the grounds on which the enforcement authority believe a penalty charge is payable:

Although these proceedings are civil in nature, it is a long established principle of law that anyone accused of wrongdoing must be given unambiguous particulars of the nature of the accusation he faces. The penalty charge served by the enforcement authority does not specify whether the prohibited turn is a left turn, a right turn or a u-turn, it simply states “50 Performing a prohibited turn”. However the list of contravention codes published by the London Councils provides that for contravention code 50, "Code-specific suffixes apply." and the following suffixes are provided on page 4: "50 l) no left turn r) no right turn u) no U-turn"

While previous decisions are not binding they can be persuasive and I submit Austin Biesty v London Borough of Brent (case reference 2130412623) as persuasive authority in this instance. In that case the tribunal held that:

“The Penalty Charge Notice ('PCN') in this case describes the alleged traffic contravention as Failing to comply with a sign indicating a prohibited turn. However, the PCN fails to particularise what turn is prohibited, left or right. Also, whilst the Penalty Charge Notice ('PCN') includes superimposed pictures, it is impossible to see in the copy filed any actual traffic sign(s) that the appellant is alleged to have failed to comply with and there is no copy of the sign(s) themselves superimposed on the PCN.

In the circumstances, I find that the PCN is invalid and unenforceable as it fails to comply with the requirements of section 4(8)(a)(i) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 ('LLA & TFL Act 2003'), which states that the PCN "must (a) state (i) the grounds on which the council...believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle".

In these circumstances, I must allow this appeal.”

In this case, as in Austin Biesty v London Borough of Brent, the PCN fails to particularise what turn is prohibited and the signs which are alleged to have been contravened are not visible on the PCN. There is also no explanation from the council as to why they have not used the contravention code suffix listed by London Councils.

It follows that the PCN in this case also fails to comply with section 4(8)(a)(i) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 and the appeal must be allowed.

Ground 3: The amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: The PCN does not particularise the location of the alleged contravention:

The Ordinence Survey website shows that Mare street extends for approximately 1.1 miles from the junction with Dalston Lane in the north to the junction with Andrews Road in the south, along its length it intersects approximately 30 junctions and the PCN does not specify where on Mare street the contravention is said to have occurred.

I submit Matthew Kelly v London Borough of Harrow (case reference 216029138A) as persuasive authority:

“Mr Kelly has appeared in person with his son, Mr Sean Kelly.
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being in a bus lane in Northolt Road Northbound at 12.49pm on 12 March 2016.
Mr Kelly appeals because he says that the PCN does not sufficiently identify the location of the alleged contravention. His evidence shows that there are 5 camera enforcement locations in Northolt Road.
Although the Council says in its case summary that the location is Northolt Road at the junction with Shaftesbury Avenue, this is not clear from the PCN.
The PCN must state the grounds on which the Council believe that the penalty charge is payable. Those grounds must be expressed in terms that allow the recipient of the PCN to know not just the nature of the alleged contravention but exactly where it is said to have occurred. I agree with Mr Kelly that this PCN did not sufficiently identify the location of the alleged contravention and I allow the appeal for this reason.”

I aver that the PCN does not allow the recipient to understand where on Mare Street the allegation is said to have occurred and the appeal must therefore be allowed.
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cp8759
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 19:48
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change this
QUOTE
None of the limited exception to this rule apply in this case so the PCN was served out of time, it follows that the amount payable is nil.
Hackney Council has no legal right to serve fresh PCNs on me because of that illegality –Hackney Council were therefore acting ultra vires. I have been an unwitting victim of Hackney Council’s incompetence had the hire firm not given me the appropriate dates of service.

In common law terms there is a procedural impropriety :-

"A decision suffers from procedural impropriety if in the process of its making the procedures prescribed by statute have not been followed or if the "rules of natural justice" have not been adhered to".

That means the original PCNs were served out of time and Hackney Council are trying to take advantage of me illegally and the new PCNs to me should be cancelled.


to this
QUOTE
None of the limited exception to this rule apply in this case so the original PCN was served on the hire company out of time, it follows that the amount payable is nil.

Hackney Council now has no legal right to serve fresh PCNs on me and because of that illegality, Hackney Council is acting ultra vires. I would have been an unwitting victim of Hackney Council’s incompetence had the hire firm not given me the appropriate dates of service.

In common law terms there is a procedural impropriety, a decision suffers from procedural impropriety if in the process of its making the procedures prescribed by statute have not been followed or if the "rules of natural justice" have not been adhered to. That means the original PCNs were served out of time and Hackney Council had no authority to issue the new PCNs, which as a consequence must be cancelled.


This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 19:49


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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jonjon135
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 05:23
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 20:48) *
change this
QUOTE
None of the limited exception to this rule apply in this case so the PCN was served out of time, it follows that the amount payable is nil.
Hackney Council has no legal right to serve fresh PCNs on me because of that illegality –Hackney Council were therefore acting ultra vires. I have been an unwitting victim of Hackney Council’s incompetence had the hire firm not given me the appropriate dates of service.

In common law terms there is a procedural impropriety :-

"A decision suffers from procedural impropriety if in the process of its making the procedures prescribed by statute have not been followed or if the "rules of natural justice" have not been adhered to".

That means the original PCNs were served out of time and Hackney Council are trying to take advantage of me illegally and the new PCNs to me should be cancelled.


to this
QUOTE
None of the limited exception to this rule apply in this case so the original PCN was served on the hire company out of time, it follows that the amount payable is nil.

Hackney Council now has no legal right to serve fresh PCNs on me and because of that illegality, Hackney Council is acting ultra vires. I would have been an unwitting victim of Hackney Council’s incompetence had the hire firm not given me the appropriate dates of service.

In common law terms there is a procedural impropriety, a decision suffers from procedural impropriety if in the process of its making the procedures prescribed by statute have not been followed or if the "rules of natural justice" have not been adhered to. That means the original PCNs were served out of time and Hackney Council had no authority to issue the new PCNs, which as a consequence must be cancelled.




Thanks will summit appeal today.
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jonjon135
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 05:41
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Was going to appeal PCN today but got this message

"Your PCN is now closed, Thank you"


What does this mean? PCN is cancelled?

Ticket ReferenceQZ
Vehicle Registration NumberG
ColourBLACK
Make
Contravention50 - Performing a prohibited turn
LocationMare Street (D)
Seen atFri, 22 Jun 2018 17:13
Served byPost
This PCN is now closed. Thank you.
This PCN is past the stage at which you can challenge it or make representations

This post has been edited by jonjon135: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 05:46
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Enceladus
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 09:38
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QUOTE (jonjon135 @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 06:41) *
Was going to appeal PCN today but got this message

"Your PCN is now closed, Thank you"


What does this mean? PCN is cancelled?

Ticket ReferenceQZ
Vehicle Registration NumberG
ColourBLACK
Make
Contravention50 - Performing a prohibited turn
LocationMare Street (D)
Seen atFri, 22 Jun 2018 17:13
Served byPost
This PCN is now closed. Thank you.
This PCN is past the stage at which you can challenge it or make representations

Message? How received.

That's the online PCN status used by Hackney when a PCN has been cancelled, appeal upheld at Adjudication or paid. So in this case the PCN has been cancelled. You should have had a letter telling you such.

You had two PCNs but only one Notice of Rejection. Is the information above related to the NOR or the other PCN.
Check the website for the PCN status of the other PCN. Take screen shots of the PCN status of both PCNs.

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 09:43
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jonjon135
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 11:11
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 10:38) *
QUOTE (jonjon135 @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 06:41) *
Was going to appeal PCN today but got this message

"Your PCN is now closed, Thank you"


What does this mean? PCN is cancelled?

Ticket ReferenceQZ
Vehicle Registration NumberG
ColourBLACK
Make
Contravention50 - Performing a prohibited turn
LocationMare Street (D)
Seen atFri, 22 Jun 2018 17:13
Served byPost
This PCN is now closed. Thank you.
This PCN is past the stage at which you can challenge it or make representations

Message? How received.

That's the online PCN status used by Hackney when a PCN has been cancelled, appeal upheld at Adjudication or paid. So in this case the PCN has been cancelled. You should have had a letter telling you such.

You had two PCNs but only one Notice of Rejection. Is the information above related to the NOR or the other PCN.
Check the website for the PCN status of the other PCN. Take screen shots of the PCN status of both PCNs.


Message I got from online appeal page. Did not let me pay or appeal against PCN.
I have not received any PCN for 21.06.18 contravention to my home address yet.

Are you saying I need to check PCNs issued originally to hire company to?
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