Turning right from left hand lane in YBJ Options

[Nero31]

Dear Learned Friends

I have been issued with a PCN for Contravention Code 31, Entering and stopping in a Box Junction when prohibited at the Ealing Road/High Road (Wembley) on 15/06/2019 at 16:06.

I have attached two pages from the PCN and a copy of my Representation together with Three pages from the NOR for your information.

I shall be extremely thankful for your opinion about my chances of success at a Tribunal, what information should I directed at the hearing and what should I write to them with the appeal paper works.

The deadline is approaching very fast and a quick response will be highly appreciated.

Kind regards
Nero

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[PASTMYBEST]

You are right in one sense there is an exemption when turning right but its stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

So what was the car in front doing was it waiting to complete a right turn or had it turned left?

We need to see the video

TSRGD 2002 was revoked 3 years ago by the way

[Nero31]

You are right in one sense there is an exemption when turning right but its stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

So what was the car in front doing was it waiting to complete a right turn or had it turned left?

We need to see the video

TSRGD 2002 was revoked 3 years ago by the way

Thank You PASTMYBEST for the reply.

The car in front was waiting to complete a right turn.

Please advise how to upload a video. I tried send a MP4 clip of 18,654kb but could find a way or how to send it.

Kind regards
Nero31

This post has been edited by Nero31: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 - 08:37

[PASTMYBEST]

You are right in one sense there is an exemption when turning right but its stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

So what was the car in front doing was it waiting to complete a right turn or had it turned left?

We need to see the video

TSRGD 2002 was revoked 3 years ago by the way

Thank You PASTMYBEST for the reply.

The car in front was waiting to complete a right turn.

Please advise how to upload a video. I tried send a MP4 clip of 18,654kb but could find a way or how to send it.

Kind regards
Nero31

host it on youtube or other video hosting site then link

[Nero31]

You are right in one sense there is an exemption when turning right but its stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

So what was the car in front doing was it waiting to complete a right turn or had it turned left?

We need to see the video

TSRGD 2002 was revoked 3 years ago by the way

Thank You PASTMYBEST for the reply.

The car in front was waiting to complete a right turn.

Please advise how to upload a video. I tried send a MP4 clip of 18,654kb but could find a way or how to send it.

Kind regards
Nero31

https://vimeo.com/user83791962/review/357165864/ce54a9c972

You are right in one sense there is an exemption when turning right but its stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

So what was the car in front doing was it waiting to complete a right turn or had it turned left?

We need to see the video

TSRGD 2002 was revoked 3 years ago by the way

Thank You PASTMYBEST for the reply.

The car in front was waiting to complete a right turn.

Please advise how to upload a video. I tried send a MP4 clip of 18,654kb but could find a way or how to send it.

Kind regards
Nero31

https://vimeo.com/user83791962/review/357165864/ce54a9c972

It's the dark car before the long limo.

[PASTMYBEST]

The link doesn't work

[Nero31]

https://youtu.be/pPt9zGSZVJM

[PASTMYBEST]

https://youtu.be/pPt9zGSZVJM

you need to make it public so we can view

[Nero31]

New link with access to Public

https://youtu.be/pPt9zGSZVJM

[Incandescent]

Well OP, it would help if you told us which vehicle is yours as I see three in contravention in the video. However if it is the black saloon, it is bang-to-rights because it does not qualify for the exemption as it was not prevented from turning right by oncoming vehicles, but by stationary vehicles in front of it.

[Longtime Lurker]

Stopping behind stationary vehicles is fine, if they are trying to complete a right turn, which (if we're talking about the black car) is the case here. The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, paragraph 11 says:

(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—

(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

The silver car in front of the black one is "waiting to complete a right turn", so this exemption applies to the black car.

[PASTMYBEST]

Stopping behind stationary vehicles is fine, if they are trying to complete a right turn, which (if we're talking about the black car) is the case here. The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, paragraph 11 says:

(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—

(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

The silver car in front of the black one is "waiting to complete a right turn", so this exemption applies to the black car.

I agree though the road layout does not lend its self to the manoeuvre it seems to be common. and that needs be stressed because an adjudicator could find the car in front had completed their right turn so the exemption does not apply

[Longtime Lurker]

Good point, but you could counter with the fact that the Silver Micra in front of that hasn't completed it's turn, and the rule doesn't specify that only the vehicle directly in front should be considered.

[PASTMYBEST]

Good point, but you could counter with the fact that the Silver Micra in front of that hasn't completed it's turn, and the rule doesn't specify that only the vehicle directly in front should be considered.

Its going to be down to the subjective view of the adjudicator, a human who may think that's poor driving I cant take a lenient approach

[Nero31]

Thank you guys for your ideas. I have until tomorrow to decide whether to pay the discounted amount or go to the adjudicator.
I have not faced an adjudicator before and am not sure of the chances of a success here. I feel its about 50-50! What do you think?
Your opinion/s would be much appreciated.

[PASTMYBEST]

Me I would go for it.

The contravention is

Box junctions

11.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

(2) Subject to sub-paragraph (4) the marking when placed as a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)© of the definition of that expression conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.

(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—

(a) causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and

(b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

When you entered the car in front was still waiting to complete its right turn

[Longtime Lurker]

I think it's much better than 50/50, and I'd go for it too.

[Nero31]

Thank you very much dear friends, you have given me more than adequate facts to strengthen me to go for the appeal.
Will I be able to get some assistance from any of you at the hearing if at all it would be convenient?
You deserve to get a financial contribution to support your good work for many like me.

[Earl Purple]

I always find it incredible that members here are able to get people off what looks like clear box junction cases on technicalities or interpretation of the wording, as the rule appears to be to not enter if the exit is not clear, and it is the stationary vehicles in the road being entered rather than the oncoming vehicles that appear to be causing the traffic to wait.

That looks like a horribly designed junction to me.

Of course the council could attempt to spend some money on fixing the junction. Or they could try to raise some by catching right-turning traffic in the box junction.

[PASTMYBEST]

Thank you very much dear friends, you have given me more than adequate facts to strengthen me to go for the appeal.
Will I be able to get some assistance from any of you at the hearing if at all it would be convenient?
You deserve to get a financial contribution to support your good work for many like me.

We have a member who may be able to represent you Mr Mustard try to PM him