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UKPC Charge, In private bay at my rented flat
boro12856
post Tue, 27 Aug 2013 - 10:43
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Hi all, spent a while reading various threads but thought I had best ask for my own personal advice.

Me and my partner rent a flat which has a gated entrance and you have your own space (corresponding to flat number) ours is in the underground section. We had a parking permit which has the number of the space on it to display on a daily basis.

Recently the gates to the carpark have been 'broken' and one side is constantly left open, which now has resulted in three UKPC notices in the space of two weeks.

We currently only have her car at the flat and I very rarely use the car, both occasions I have used it and returned to our parking bay I have once forgotten to put the parking permit on the dashboard, returning to the car next morning to see we had a ticket given to us around 4am for not displaying permit. And the second one for the same reason this time however I am 100% certain the permit was placed on the dashboard, however it wasn't there the next morning and another ticket was given (again around 4am, these idiots love a nightshift)

The third notice we had received was when we had friends staying for a weekend, we have a visitor permit too, which we were not given any advice about how long this could be used for by our landlord. All we were told is that if using a visitor permit please park in the disabled bays. Now this permit was used constantly for around 2 weeks when we first moved in as we had two cars then, and no problems. I have also noticed other cars at the flats always in the disabled spots and not disabled drivers.

But one weekend we gave our permit to friends to park downstairs and my girlfriend parked her car in the visitors bay, on the second night she received another charge notice this time saying that she had over stayed her welcome in the visitors bay.

Now I am just looking for what to do with these pieces of paper I have been given, as there is NO WAY I will be paying them a penny! We need to use an electric fob to gain access to the carpark, and our parking spot corresponds with our flat number. So if they are coming in EVERY NIGHT they must see the car in the same bay using the permit, yet the ONE occasions I genuinely know I forgot to display the permit a ticket is slapped straight on. It is funny however how the influx of tickets corresponds with the gated entrance been broken.

Thanks for any help.

Regards
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post Tue, 27 Aug 2013 - 10:43
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boro12856
post Sat, 29 Nov 2014 - 00:48
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QUOTE (Fleagle @ Sat, 29 Nov 2014 - 00:05) *
You say your parking space is attached to your flat... What exactly does your lease say?

Just that, if the wording is right, you can sue the private parking company should they fail to stop issuing "parking tickets" after you've sent them an appropriate letter - as long as your lease says 'certain' things wink.gif .

We're talking significant financial sanctions and negative return on 'their' funds here (especially if every leaseholder indulges) wink.gif .

Alternatively (and more blatantly but more simply wink.gif ) - though no-one will suggest this *ahem* - the leaseholders could *allegedly* arrange to park "illegally" in turns of (say wink.gif ) five for every night each week, followed by the next five (or whatever number) parking "illegally" the next week, then the following five (as above) the week after - rinse and repeat until the "parking tickets stop being applied (to quote Jack Carter wink.gif , "I told you it wouldn't take long!!") wink.gif .

The leaseholders who parked "illegally" each week then each have seven "parking notices" which they will individually appeal and request POPLA codes each time (at 27 groats each wink.gif ) every time and it soon multiplies up - at which time the PPC soon exits stage left laugh.gif .

Not that anyone would recommend this organised sabotage.

Oh NO!! wink.gif


A similar thing has actually happened with my girlfriends car, after so many notices and appeals they now stop applying the PCN to her car even though she still parks with no permit.

With regards to the parking space we have a space which is numbered for our flat number and block name. They have been putting tickets on the car parked in this space. Now I got in touch with the leaseholder and requested a copy of the lease or at least the part detailing the parking situation but she out right refused. The only information we have is that of a contract agreement for our rental of the flat which states 1 parking space.
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farmerboy
post Sat, 29 Nov 2014 - 00:55
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QUOTE (boro12856 @ Fri, 28 Nov 2014 - 23:16) *
I did appeal in the beginning, but to be quite frank I just got sick of it all and I have a life without sitting and conducting letters none stop to these idiots.


Wish I had a life..... Oh I do. If you'd have followed direction you wouldn't be back here now. Sorry, yes its a bore but alternatively you can ignore.

QUOTE (boro12856 @ Fri, 28 Nov 2014 - 23:16) *
What is a gan letter? And when you said heres a thread with some info there was no link, can you please share again?


Sorry. forgot to attach. http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=87052
You can do a search for more threads on them.
Gan is the forums master scribe at succinct letters to these clowns. He may be passing at some point.
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boro12856
post Sat, 29 Nov 2014 - 01:07
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QUOTE (farmerboy @ Sat, 29 Nov 2014 - 00:55) *
QUOTE (boro12856 @ Fri, 28 Nov 2014 - 23:16) *
I did appeal in the beginning, but to be quite frank I just got sick of it all and I have a life without sitting and conducting letters none stop to these idiots.


Wish I had a life..... Oh I do. If you'd have followed direction you wouldn't be back here now. Sorry, yes its a bore but alternatively you can ignore.

QUOTE (boro12856 @ Fri, 28 Nov 2014 - 23:16) *
What is a gan letter? And when you said heres a thread with some info there was no link, can you please share again?


Sorry. forgot to attach. http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=87052
You can do a search for more threads on them.
Gan is the forums master scribe at succinct letters to these clowns. He may be passing at some point.


I didnt mean to cause offence from that statement, its late and im working the nightshift. It just all became so tedious we just started to ignore especially after all our appeals initially seemed to fall on deaf ears.

Thanks for the link
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Jlc
post Sat, 29 Nov 2014 - 07:13
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QUOTE (boro12856 @ Sat, 29 Nov 2014 - 01:07) *
after all our appeals initially seemed to fall on deaf ears.

Their only income is often people paying these infernal things - they aren't going to give up easily... That's why they need a duffing at POPLA.

They are still unlikely to actually issue proceedings but out of all the PPC's out there this lot are the most likely to consider doing so going forwards - they seem to be trying just this is Scotland but haven't had much success. They have 6 years to do so.

Personally, I think a terse letter is required clearly setting out your position - they tend to pick on easier targets as actually taking people to court generally is a lot of effort and can be loss making.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 29 Nov 2014 - 07:14


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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boro12856
post Thu, 8 Jan 2015 - 21:06
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Some further advice is sought after, I managed to write a response to SCS who have obviously referred everything back to DRP and we received a letter from them today in relation to 7 references of parking charge notices.

What really made me laugh was the comment about Internet templates my response was that I would not be entering any payments to them as I believe I haven't entered any contract with them.

I have attached the letter, if anyone can help be greatly appreciated.



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emanresu
post Fri, 9 Jan 2015 - 07:31
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Its known as a loop. One computer does not know what to do so send a ping to another computer which sends out a letter.

Send a letter to DRP to refer it back to their client and not to bother you again.

See how many loops they go through before someone switches the damm thing off.


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Jan 2015 - 08:31
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7 tickets though does increase the chance of them actually issuing a claim. (£1k+ may be worth their while)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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emanresu
post Fri, 9 Jan 2015 - 09:59
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QUOTE
7 tickets though does increase the chance of them actually issuing a claim. (£1k+ may be worth their while)


I'll eat my hat if the do - plus dig out the case of East Riding v UKPC to see if there is any more porridge available.


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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boro12856
post Fri, 9 Jan 2015 - 10:04
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QUOTE (emanresu @ Fri, 9 Jan 2015 - 07:31) *
Its known as a loop. One computer does not know what to do so send a ping to another computer which sends out a letter.

Send a letter to DRP to refer it back to their client and not to bother you again.

See how many loops they go through before someone switches the damm thing off.


What sort of letter should I be sending back? Just a blunt I will not be paying please inform UKPC that I do not wish to pay said charges? Or go more in depth?

Thanks
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 9 Jan 2015 - 10:38
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Have a search on here for Gans letters on "debt denied"

They are short, sweet and to the point. Get one, tailor to your situation, and do NOT embellish it. They are concise to avoid the chance of the DR people using your words against you, to confuse or confabulate the position to keep engaging with them.

There are plenty of examples - get Gans user name and click on their posts, you will see plenty of examples/. Post a draft here.
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emanresu
post Fri, 9 Jan 2015 - 10:48
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It may be better to do the "debt is denied but.. letter"

QUOTE
Dear Sirs

Your client obviously thinks I owe them some money. I do not.

If your client wishes to press a claim he may do so but prior to that I wish to have the following information

• A copy of the current signed site agreement or contract with the landowner/occupier of that site
• A copy of the wording of the current imposed permit scheme with proof that the landowner and the current residents have agreed to/been informed about it
• Evidence that UKPC are legally enabled to override the prior rights, covenants and easements enjoyed by the residents under their lease/rental agreements
• A current map of all the areas and bays of that car park where the permit scheme is and is not applicable, as agreed with the landowner/occupier
• Contemporaneous photos of the actual signs on site taken from the view of the driver of a car at the entrance and in the car park
• A definitive map of where these signs are in that particular car park
• A detailed breakdown of how the amount of the 'charge' was arrived at.

In the alternative, should you or your client or any of your clients agent continue to write to me, I will happily reply at the cost of £100 per letter. Acceptance will be by performance.

Yours etc


Hat tip to ST for the content. This letter simply highlights that they can do 1 of 2 things. Go to court when they would need to show the information above anyway. Or continue to write to you at £100 per letter. (I think the current record for stupidity for a PPC to continue to reply is about £1400 but there have been a few lesser amounts)

It would also be an ideal opportunity to present to court the findings of UKPC's own criminal conviction for a false and misleading appeals system. I am sure their current appeals system is in no way false and misleading - or in anyway criminal.


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Jan 2015 - 12:08
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QUOTE (emanresu @ Fri, 9 Jan 2015 - 09:59) *
QUOTE
7 tickets though does increase the chance of them actually issuing a claim. (£1k+ may be worth their while)


I'll eat my hat if the do - plus dig out the case of East Riding v UKPC to see if there is any more porridge available.

Increase doesn't mean they will of course - as above I think it's worth parking (pardon the pun) the matter back to them. The chance of them actually issuing a claim is still small. Indeed, it might be even worth a 'pop' just raising a claim to see if the OP pays up rather than fight the matter - they may not seriously intend to see the inside of a court room.

Persecuting people in regards to their own spaces is about as low as private parking gets.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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boro12856
post Fri, 9 Jan 2015 - 12:14
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Thanks for the advice, will send a letter back to them today.
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boro12856
post Thu, 29 Oct 2015 - 21:22
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Back again guys!

So after last time I responded to both the 'solicitors' letter and DRP, however today we received five seperate letters from DRP titled 'Letter before referral for legal action'.

The references are all previously used references on the letter I received last time from DRP and I did respond saying about charging them for any future letters so I am just after some advice on how to respond to these five letters Daniel Tomkins who has now taken over as the collections manager from Graham.

Appreciate any help!

Also just as an update, we have now moved from the flat and live in a house with a garage which is great but also I know from speaking to the management agency who owned the flat complex that they seized all contracts with UKPC due to on going issues, shall I use this as reference too?

Thanks
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emanresu
post Fri, 30 Oct 2015 - 05:53
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QUOTE
Its known as a loop. One computer does not know what to do so send a ping to another computer which sends out a letter.


Confuse the computer by not replying and filing the paperwork


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 30 Oct 2015 - 10:26
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INdeedd. File and ignore DRP

Letter before action - something saying court action WILL happen in X days - then come back here
Real court papers from Nottingham - come back here.
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Jlc
post Fri, 30 Oct 2015 - 10:30
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 30 Oct 2015 - 10:26) *
Real court papers from Nottingham - come back here.

Has Robin Hood invaded Northampton then? cool.gif


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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boro12856
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 17:30
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Hi everyone, so its been a while but I am back again. My partner received this letter last week which we have now gotten added to our previous letter THREE more claims. However my first notice, is that all the reference numbers have changed and they hold no comparison to the original claim references.



I have been doing plenty of reading but my brain is frazzled today. I have begun to draft a letter however using some information and wording from other posts on here and MSE and I have this. Is this ok, or too much? Would appreciate feedback.

UKPC issued me with parking charge notices dated ..... which were unfairly and unlawfully issued. I will not be paying your demand for payment for the following reasons:

The alleged contravention did not occur

1. Quite simply, the parking attendant got it wrong and the vehicle was not parked inappropriately at the time the ticket was issued, the claim states that the vehicle was 'parked for longer than allowed' how can this be determined? The vehicle left the premises to my knowledge everyday and returned and parked again. There is no stipulation of returning vehicles cannot park in the same bay within a certain timeframe. So as stated the vehicle was indeed not parked 'for longer than the allowed time'.

2. The charges are disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss

The amount being charged is not based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to UKPC or the landowner, and far exceeds any costs incurred. Furthermore, I fail to understand how UKPC or the landowners have faced any loss by the driver being parked in their own designated space. The car park can only be accessed with an electronic key fob and permits are provided to prevent non-residents entering and parking in the car park; not for UKPC to generate an income from residents parked in their own spaces! Please provide me with an exact breakdown of the charges you are claiming and how you reached these figures, because they are completely excessive.

3. There is insufficient evidence to prove that I, as the registered keeper, am liable for these charges

Your client has failed to provide me with proof that a contract was in place with the landowner/managing agent at the time of the parking tickets. Regardless of this, tenants are not a party to this and no contract was ever signed to reflect this. Please provide: written confirmation from the managing agents that the landlord agreed to these charges, written confirmation from the landlord that he/she agreed to these charges, written confirmation from the landlord that he/she agreed to court action.

4. Finally, if you choose to pursue me please be aware that I have sought legal advice and will not enter into any further correspondence. This will be the only letter you will receive from me until you answer the specific points raised in my letter. Should this be pursued, I will be seeking compensation for the distress your harassment is causing, as well as claiming for the amount of my time that you have consumed with the ridiculous claims your client is making.

Please note that I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner, as well as complaining in writing to my MP and ensuring that they are appraised of the debate where Parliament agreed unanimously: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists should not have to put up with this. I am fully aware that your client was recently banned from the DVLA (for the second time), for the unlawful and fraudulent issuing of parking tickets. Even going to the extent of creating false photos and evidence. I'm shocked that any legitimate law firm would willingly represent a company like this; frankly it should be embarrassing for you to do so.

To summarise, should you choose to pursue this, I will require the following information for my case (in addition to my requests in above):

1. A full explanation of the cause of action
2. Whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. Whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. What the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
5. A copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
6. A copy of any alleged contract with the driver
7. A plan showing where any signs were displayed
8. Details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
9. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.

Yours sincerely,

TIA P
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Eljayjay
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 18:08
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I think you can ask for more than that. You could, for example, try something like this...


Dear <salutation>,

Thank you for your <letter/email/parking charge notice> reference <their ref> of <date> in relation to a parking issue at <location>.

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle on which the parking charge notice was placed.

If your client wishes to continue its attempt to recover the alleged parking charge, it will need to establish its right to the money through the County Court.

Before taking court action against me, however, in accordance with The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims as made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice, your client must send me a letter of claim.

The purpose of The Pre-Action Protocol is to give both your client and myself an opportunity to narrow the issues between us. That being so, after the letter of claim has been sent, your client must give me a window of time in which to respond to the letter and to request information and documents from it.

If your client would like me to reconsider my position before we get to that stage, it may wish to provide now the information and documents, which I shall otherwise request later, so that we can attempt to narrow the issues between us now. If so, please arrange for your client to send me the following:-

<tab> a full explanation of the cause of action;

<tab> a statement as to whether your client is pursuing me as driver or keeper;

<tab> if your client is pursuing me as keeper, a statement detailing how and when your client complied with each of the requirements of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 for each of the parking events;

<tab> a statement giving full details of the claim, e.g. where precisely the vehicle was parked (i.e. the precise parking space), the period of parking, how the amounts claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) arose for each of the parking events;

<tab> the parking agreement between your client and the owner or occupier of the land purporting to grant the right to your client to charge for parking on the land;

<tab> the site plan provided by your client to its accredited trade association;

<tab> a copy of the written contract for the alleged debt;

<tab> the accredited trade association’s code of practice to which your client claims to adhere;

<tab> evidence that signage meeting the requirements of that code of practice and also meeting the standards mentioned in the Parking Eye v Beavis judgement in terms of positioning, size of signs, size of font, height at which displayed, distance from nearest common part was in place at the time of each of the parking events;

<tab> if there is a lease governing parking on the land, a copy of the lease;

<tab> if there is any other agreement governing parking on the land, such as a tenancy agreement, a copy of that document;

<tab> if a lease or other agreement exists and contains express provision to allow your client to operate a parking scheme on the land, a note of the specific clauses in the lease or tenancy agreement applicable to this situation;

<tab> if a lease or other agreement exists and any rules or regulations have been made in accordance with its provisions to allow your client to operate a parking scheme on the land:-

<tab><tab> (a) a copy of those rules or regulations duly signed, etc. by the person(s) who made them; and

<tab><tab> (b) a note of the specific clauses in the lease in accordance with which those rules or regulations were made;

<tab> if a lease or other agreement exists and it granted individual rights to park on the land to a particular person, e.g. the lessee or tenant, a note of the name and address of that person and a copy of the instrument which either transferred those individual rights from that person to your client or transferred a share of those individual rights from that person to your client – if there is more than one such person, please provide the same information and documentation for each of them;

<tab> if a lease exists or other agreement exists and its terms do not permit third parties, e.g. your client, to enforce the lease’s terms, a note explaining how your client has concluded that it has acquired such a right;

<tab> if a lease or other agreement exists and your client’s parking scheme has not been introduced in accordance with its provisions, a note explaining how your client has concluded that its alleged parking contract with the driver has acquired primacy of contract over the lease;

<tab> notes giving details of the due diligence process undertaken by your client to ensure that not only the contract between your client and its principal but also the purported contract between your client and the driver met the “Implied term about care and skill” requirement contained in the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982; and

<tab> any other information and documents on which your client would rely in court.

Of course, I am sure that, like me, your client has great respect for the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims and, particularly, its aims as expressed in its paragraph 2. In these circumstances, I am sure that your client would like to narrow and, if at all possible, resolve the issues between us by providing the information and documents requested above at the earliest possible opportunity.

In that event, I shall gladly reconsider my position on receipt of them.

As I am sure you will realise, in the event that your client does not provide the information and documents prior to court action being taken against me, I shall apply to the court for your client’s claim to be struck out for its failure to comply with The Protocol.

Furthermore, in the event of court action being taken against me, I shall launch a counterclaim against your client.

I look forward to receiving your reply.

Yours sincerely,

This post has been edited by Eljayjay: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 18:11
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boro12856
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 09:44
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Thanks for that Eljayjay, however the letter my other half has received is the LBC, so im a little confused by the first part of your reply. I will amend the latter half of my reply and include some more sections of requests that you have added.
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