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PCn ... Appeal IAS... Court Letter
10020132
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 01:01
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Hi
I got a Parking charge notice (PCN) on 3rd March 2018 from PCM Management Ltd and I appealed it. I received their response after 28 days in which the rejected my appeal and gave me the option to go to IAS. I appealed to IAS with all the points like no contract was formed, poor signage etc. and told them that I received the response after 28 days which even invalidates my appeal anyway. And they wrote to me saying that they have spoken to PCM and are agreeing to consider my appeal even though its out of time appeal. This was in May 2018

Since then, I never heard anything back from either of them. Now, I received court papers from Gladstone solicitors saying that I need to pay them 261 pounds because I failed to pay earlier.

I tried logging in to my IAS account which I couldn't login saying my password is incorrect even though the password was saved in google chrome. After resetting the password million times, I managed to login and my appeal does not even show up in my appeals. I wrote to IAS about it but they are not replying either

What should I do? PLease help !!!
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post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 01:01
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 07:44
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Well not keep trying to contact the IAS for a start, it's a guaranteed loss anyway.

Without a bit more details it is impossible to give any specific help. What exactly have you received from Gladstone? Perhaps a scan and post it up, with identifying details redacted.

Post up the original PCN you received, redacted of personal and identifying data but leave dates.

Had the driver been identified? Is this a hire car? Are you in England or Wales.
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SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 19:43
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It's useless PCM with even more pointless Gladstones, so stop panicking.

As ostell says, IAS was bound to lose so you wasted your time with that, should have come here earlier and been less panicky about the scam. These predatory PCM cases are winnable at your local court and you can claim your costs for attending - THAT is the only 'dispute resolution' you get from an IPC firm that is worth trying, the courts.
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10020132
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:04
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 08:44) *
Well not keep trying to contact the IAS for a start, it's a guaranteed loss anyway.
I thought my biggest defence is that i appealed to IAS and they never responded. So how do I know if I have to pay or not. They haven't responded even yet
Without a bit more details it is impossible to give any specific help. What exactly have you received from Gladstone? Perhaps a scan and post it up, with identifying details redacted.
I am attaching the letter that I received from them, I think these are court papers
Post up the original PCN you received, redacted of personal and identifying data but leave dates.
I cant find the original pcn but I am still looking for it as it was months ago
Had the driver been identified? Is this a hire car? Are you in England or Wales.
They dont know who the driver is. and yes it is a hire car. I am in England. I will just post the whole story shortly



QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 20:43) *
It's useless PCM with even more pointless Gladstones, so stop panicking.

As ostell says, IAS was bound to lose so you wasted your time with that But I never lost IAS as they never replied. I am going to post the full story shortly, I will be grateful if you can help, should have come here earlier and been less panicky about the scam. These predatory PCM cases are winnable at your local court and you can claim your costs for attending - THAT is the only 'dispute resolution' you get from an IPC firm that is worth trying, the courts.



This is the letter that I received from them. I think its court letter.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:51
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Yes, of course that is a court claim form. It literally tells you it is

What's the ISSUE DATE? Tell us. You blanked it

You must acknowledge the claim. You follow the instructions in post two of the newbies thread on the MSE forum. Easy google search. R3ad it. Read it again. It do it NOW. No delaying. No waiting or pr3varicating. Do it.

The ias not responding is unimportant really
What's actually important is that they have not complied with pofa and cannot hold you, as the hirer, liable.
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10020132
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 02:27
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The issue date is 4 October
I will acknowledge it today but i say that I need upto 28 days to prepare my defense?
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ostell
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 07:36
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When you acknowledge, do it now, you do not put anything at all into the defence. This gives you 33 days from the date of issue to get your defence to the court

As you have a hire car can you remember if you got copies of the hire documents and the PCN that was sent to the Hire company when you got your notice to hirer? Probably not as most companies seem to fail on this. This will be one of the major points in your defence in that they have not complied with POFA section 14 (2) and therefore cannot hold the keeper liable. Here's POFA

Did you get a letter before claim or did the claim just arrive without prior notice? If no letter then a complaint to the court, though this is not a defence.

Write to Gladstones, complain about the lack of the letter, and demand a copy of all the documents they intend to use in court in order to narrow the issues between you. As they must have these documents to hand in order to perform due diligence before issuing the claim you require the documents within 7 days.

Write a SAR request to PCM demanding copies of all the information and letters that they have sent to you. Here's a template. Specifically ask for the PCN but you want all the documents. This is supposed to be responded to in 30 days but you will not get to court in that time.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 07:46
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Jlc
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 08:35
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QUOTE (10020132 @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 00:04) *
I thought my biggest defence is that i appealed to IAS and they never responded. So how do I know if I have to pay or not. They haven't responded even yet

But I never lost IAS as they never replied.

You will have almost certainly lost at IAS.

BUT you can make a play at the lack of response - but ultimately it doesn't impact the underlying liability (or not). As you are 'entitled' to an independent appeal, at the very least it could be considered in apportioning costs.

QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 08:36) *
Write a SAR request to PCM demanding copies of all the information and letters that they have sent to you.

I wonder if the same should be done to the IAS?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:43
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:35) *
I wonder if the same should be done to the IAS?


It's worth a try
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:21
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QUOTE (10020132 @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 03:27) *
The issue date is 4 October
I will acknowledge it today but i say that I need upto 28 days to prepare my defense?
You do not ''say that you need 28 days''. By doing the AOS, you then automatically get 28 days from SERVICE of the claim form, to defend (NOT counting from whenever you do the AOS).

And it's 'DEFENCE', not 's'.
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10020132
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 02:01
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Hi
Thanks for support to all of you. You guys are gem. I hope you will help me to take this to logical conclusion.
So, here is my detailed version of the story. All help will be appreciated. I am writing in as much detail as possible but feel free to point me out to if i miss any thing important.

This car is a hire car and the contract is in my wife's name (Mrs. XYZ) and I am her husband (Mr. ABC). XYZ does only have a provisional license and does not even know how to drive and I mainly drive this car and it has my insurance on it and everything.

On 1st March 2018, I was in the mentioned area to pick up something from my brother who lives in these flats where this parking is situated. It was a snowing heavily. I was with my wife XYZ and my 2 year old son. I asked her to go in the lift to 5th floor to pick the item up. In the meantime, I asked verbally the concerage guy (who attends parking as well) if I can wait here in my car and he said its fine and I was in my car. She picked the item up from my brother and when she was coming back, the lift got broken and she called me saying that the lift is broken and she was stuck in it on the 5th floor. So, I went to the conceirage and told him the situation and he said dont worry he will sort it out. In the meantime, fire alarm of something building started and he went to attend that as first priority. And he asked me to go the lift on 5th floor by stairs and calm XYZ down and I will be there in sometime. I went to the 5th floor and I was checking onto my wife as she was with my 2 year old son and 2 months old girl as well.
With the fire alarm, the manager who resides in the adjacent building, came down to see if everything is okay and he saw my car and took the photographs and everything and left a note on my car that I will get a pcn very soon for parking in a place where its not allowed. The lift suddenly opened while being on 5th floor and we took the stairs with the children to come down to find this out. I spoke to the attendant and he said that I will convey to the manager to not forward. I even called the manager next day in morning but he told me that he has already forwarded it to the company.
And then I received the invoice from the hire company for fine redirection and later on the PCN. I appealed the PCN and I received the response after 30 days, which I think in itself is another violation. It gave me the right to appeal to IAS and when I tried appealing to IAS, they said that I cant appeal as its out of 21 days. When I told them that I just received it now, then they emailed me later to say that PCM is happy to entertain my appeal and I submitted my appeal to which they never responded so I just assumed that my appeal is pending. BTW I appealed in my name Mr. ABC not MRS XYZ

I started receiving letters from debt collectors which I completely ignored and now I have received these court papers.

The basis on which I appealed was

1) Poor signage - as there is no signage at the entrance and even the signs which are inside in parking are too small to read and have no lighting at all. I even attached the picture which I am attaching here as well and this is one of the pictures from evidence of PCN keeping in mind that the weather on this particular night was terrible and it was snowing heavily.
2) Extenuating Circumstances as explained above about my wife and child being stuck in the lift and was allowed to stop in the area by the attendant
3) No signs or road markings to indicate anything

And I think there were 3 or 4 more points which I dont remember now as its been over 3 months

And I claimed the fine to be cancelled and be compensated for the fine redirection fee and the legal fee but IAS has not yet decided on my appeal

This is the long story. I tried to be concise but I added as much detail as possible

Thanks for taking your time to read and help me. Much Appreciated !!!

QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 08:36) *
When you acknowledge, do it now, you do not put anything at all into the defence. This gives you 33 days from the date of issue to get your defence to the court I will do it now. Thanks

As you have a hire car can you remember if you got copies of the hire documents and the PCN that was sent to the Hire company when you got your notice to hirer? No, I just received the PCN which I have attached in another reply. I didn't receive any copy of hire documents
Probably not as most companies seem to fail on this. This will be one of the major points in your defence in that they have not complied with POFA section 14 (2) and therefore cannot hold the keeper liable. Thanks a sigh of relief
Here's POFA

Did you get a letter before claim or did the claim just arrive without prior notice? If no letter then a complaint to the court, though this is not a defence.I did get some letters from debt collectors but nothing from Gladstone or any other solicitor as if they are going to make a claim


Write to Gladstones, complain about the lack of the letter, and demand a copy of all the documents they intend to use in court in order to narrow the issues between you. As they must have these documents to hand in order to perform due diligence before issuing the claim you require the documents within 7 days. I will write today and post on Monday but what exactly should I write or include in my letter? Sorry, but this is the first time for me so I dont know much


Write a SAR request to PCM demanding copies of all the information and letters that they have sent to you. Here's a template. Specifically ask for the PCN but you want all the documents. This is supposed to be responded to in 30 days but you will not get to court in that time.
I will do that now and post on Monday as well.


QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:35) *
QUOTE (10020132 @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 00:04) *
I thought my biggest defence is that i appealed to IAS and they never responded. So how do I know if I have to pay or not. They haven't responded even yet

But I never lost IAS as they never replied.

You will have almost certainly lost at IAS.

BUT you can make a play at the lack of response - but ultimately it doesn't impact the underlying liability (or not). I though a pending appeal cant be taken to court as the website of citizen advise bureau says but now i know that its incorrect
As you are 'entitled' to an independent appeal, at the very least it could be considered in apportioning costs.

QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 08:36) *
Write a SAR request to PCM demanding copies of all the information and letters that they have sent to you.

I wonder if the same should be done to the IAS?



QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 10:43) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:35) *
I wonder if the same should be done to the IAS?


It's worth a try


I will do that as well


QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:21) *
QUOTE (10020132 @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 03:27) *
The issue date is 4 October
I will acknowledge it today but i say that I need upto 28 days to prepare my defense?
You do not ''say that you need 28 days''. By doing the AOS, you then automatically get 28 days from SERVICE of the claim form, to defend (NOT counting from whenever you do the AOS).I am going to do that now.


And it's 'DEFENCE', not 's'.

Point noted


This is PCN that I received.
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10020132
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 02:40
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This is the picture that they attached in pcn which clearly shows the severity of weather and the unlit sign boards in the middle of night
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ostell
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 09:16
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So I presume that the the notice to hirer was, of course, in the hirer's name. Was the court claim addresses to the hirer, yes or no? If so then edit ALL your posts so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred, especially post #11

With that Notice to Hirer was there copies of the rental agreement AND the original PCN to the hire company? If not then then they have failed to comply with POFA 14 (2) (a) and the hirer/keeper cannot be held liable

  • Failed to comply with POFA 14 (2) (a), the required documents
  • In addition the NTH fails to comply with many other of the requirements of POFA, namely not identifying the creditor 14 (5) (e), failed to give the warning required in 14 (5) ©
  • Permission was given from the concierge, because of the bad weather, to park outside the building to make a delivery
  • The situation was loading/unloading which was determined as permitted in the appeal case of Homeguard v Jobson, 9GF0A9E Oxford, June 2016
  • Because of matters outside of your control, a fire in the building and your passengers stuck in the lift you were unable leave immediately
  • The hirer keeper was not driving at the time.
  • You have complied with the requirements stated in the NTK by selecting one of the choices given and made representations against the charge.
  • As you were not the driver then you cannot, as stated in the NTH, be liable for the charge after 28 days, only the driver is liable as stated in the Notice to Hirer.


The defendant cannot be liable for the claimed charges.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 09:17
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