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Smart Parking PCN ref ANPR overstay
Dog Spot
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 19:16
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Good Evening,
I have received a PCN from Smart Parking for overstaying 2 hour maximum stay in an ANPR controlled car park and would really appreciate an experts assistance.
I am the registered keeper of the vehicle but I was not driving the vehicle at the time, I was passenger.
The overstay was by nearly 14 minutes taken up by driving around car park looking for a suitable parking space and time exiting car park.
Since receiving the PCN I have returned to the car park and found that the ANPR cameras are sited at the entrance and exit to the car park and they do not record the time parked only the time actually spent in the car park.
I would be very grateful if anyone can give me some advice wether to appeal and risk higher fee of £100 or to cut my losses and pay the reduced sum of £60.
Many Thanks in Advance.

This post has been edited by Dog Spot: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 19:44
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post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 19:16
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Jlc
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 19:43
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Never pay Smart. They are easy to beat.

Just check the PCN only refers to the driver being liable (and doesn’t mention keeper liability of Protection of Freedoms Act).

As the keeper was not driving then the 'appeal' will be simply that, I.e. the keeper has no liability as they have failed to comply with the PoFA to hold the keeper liable.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Dog Spot
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 19:47
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Thank you for such a rapid reply.
That's fantastic, do they send everyone a generic PCN or should I be looking for any particular wording ?
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Jlc
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:09
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Dear sirs,

ref xxxx VRN xxxx

I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of your above invoice. I will not be paying. I was not the driver. For the avoidance of doubt, I will not be identifying the driver and there is no legal requirement for me to do so without an order of the court.

As you are well aware, your paperwork fails to comply with the requirements of PoFA 2012 schedule 4.

I require you to cancel the invoice or provide me with a POPLA code whereby I will arrange for you to be instructed to cancel.

Love and kisses.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:09


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Dog Spot
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:22
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That's absolutely fantastic. I love the last line LOL. I take it by your reply they send out generic copies of a PCN to everyone ?
Thank you for your invaluable advice.
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Jlc
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:37
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You don't have to get them love and kisses... wink.gif

Yes, their PCN's are templated...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Dog Spot
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:40
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Thank you very much for your invaluable advice. These scumbags would rape the world if it wasn't for your intelligence and your kindness to help the unfortunate.
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ostell
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 21:51
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Or you could post the redacted PCN on here for checking.
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Dog Spot
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 08:26
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Attached Image
Attached Image


As advised I have put copies of redacted PCN for you experts to scan over to check the wording ref PoFA. I would be very grateful if you could advise accordingly.
Many Thanks

This post has been edited by Dog Spot: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 09:12
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 09:51
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Well you can see for yourself, it does not state that the keeper beocmes liable for the charge.
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:19
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So will this do:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or you debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc
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Dog Spot
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:24
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Yes I can see what you are saying but also it doesn't say that the driver is liable. Sorry for being dull but being new to this and not understanding the legal side of things I'm seeking reassurance so I don't shoot myself in the foot.

Thanks ostell, that's a great help, when you say will this do I take it your advise would be to appeal and to use what you have put above.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:28
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The driver is the only one who IS liable, potentially, UNLESS they comply with POFA

Same as any contract, the parties liable for breach are the parties that made the contratc. In this case, PPC and Driver (if a contract was formed, but presume for now it is).
The keeper only becomes liable due to an insane law caleld POFA2012, which in exchange for banning clamping introduced the concept that someone who never even visitied a site and never entered into the contract could become liable. Bonkers.
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:35
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If you look at POFA, and here it is, then section 9 apples to a NTK where there was no windscreen ticket. If you look at the start of 9 (2) it states "the notice must" and so if they have missed a section out then they have not complied and the keeper cannot be held liable. There are other items also missing.

The driver is always liable, if the know the identity of the driver. The purpose of POFA is to transfer the liability to the keeper when they don't know the driver.

That's the appeal to send to them and they may cancel or give you a POPLA code. WHen you appeal to POPLA with POFA failures then they will accept your appeal.
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Dog Spot
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:43
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That's great, so from reading your advice when I appeal I should use what ostell has written earlier on and that should be sufficient ?

Thank you ostell, there's such a lot to read and it seems to be written so the normal people amongst us cant or don't understand the terminology.
It keeps referring to driver being liable when they know who it is but otherwise the keeper is responsible.
This is totally confusing to me and seems to be worded in a way that could imply both scenarios.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:50
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Well no, once they know the ID of the diver (name and address for service) the keeper is no longer liable. This is clear in POFA and utterly unarguable.
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Dog Spot
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:11
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Sorry to keep going over this as I know you guys know your stuff but you state once they know the ID of the driver the keeper is no longer responsible, but does that mean if they don't know ID of driver they can find the keeper liable.
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ManxRed
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:15
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QUOTE (Dog Spot @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 12:11) *
Sorry to keep going over this as I know you guys know your stuff but you state once they know the ID of the driver the keeper is no longer responsible, but does that mean if they don't know ID of driver they can find the keeper liable.


Only if they comply with the strict criteria laid down in the relevant paragraphs of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act.

Google it, it's not THAT long to read.

A lot of parking companies fail to comply (indeed, a lot of them fail to understand what it means, but its not that complicated).

This post has been edited by ManxRed: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:16


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Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:28
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Here's POFA

On the template I gave you a slight modification:

I was not driving the vehicle at the time of the alleged breach and as there is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time I will not be doing so.
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Dog Spot
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:30
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Thank you ManxRed, although as you say its not that long but I suffer from CFS/ME and get confused very easily, mainly from brain fog. I would really appreciate your advise as to whether to appeal using what ostell wrote earlier and hope for the best. In your opinion would that be best way forward and if rejected come here for more advise if popla code is issued. I really appreciate all the help I'm getting from you people.

Thank you ostell, that makes perfect sense to include, I wouldn't have thought of adding that.
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