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Scotland PCN -ZZPS/QDR Formal pre-litigation transfer letter
motorist111
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 07:24
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Hi guys,

I seemed to be in the same boat as many other people on here and had received standard threatening letters from QDR in July each for 8 seperate scottish PCNs (dating back to 2016, spread over many months) which I had ignored following advice on here and MSE. I had been ignoring all letters however just yesterday received another QDR letter titled ‘FORMAL PRE LITIGATION TRANSFER LETTER’ which seems to have added the outstanding balances for the 8 seperate PCNs into one and sounds ominous stating that the case may be transferred to their legal partner Yuill and Kyle Solicitors! I’ve been reading more into the Ninewells case (the three nurses case which the QDR letters quote) and getting more and more worried e.g. after reading the outcome of this threas which seemed to be from one of the 3 nurses who had ignored everything until she got the ‘simple procedure notice’ from court. http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/.../t111073-0.html

I used to think that in Scotland there was a requirement for a claimant to prove the identity of a driver on the balance of probabilities and that pofa 2012 does not apply in Scotland so you should just ignore everythimg but surely after the 3 nurses joint case, this doesnt seem true atleast for the nurse who was OP in that thread and had ignored everything until the court letter. Apparently he/she even had proof that said person wasn’t at ninewells during those PCN contraventions but still was deemed liable in court. My PCNs date back to 2016 and I would really struggle to provide even that although I am not the onyl insured driver on my car and family members have definitely parked that same care at the said site in 2016.
I’ve been reading this MSE thread (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4754020) and so do I treat this letter as a LBC and try going down the practice direction route? Really worried especially after reading about the ninewells case..What do I do?



The letter
http://tinypic.com/r/2con285/9
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post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 07:24
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ostell
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 08:00
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I think in that spectacular Scottish case the defendant admitted that they were the driver but refused to pay on the grounds that they thought they didn't have to.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 09:48
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Yep, thats what happened, from memory

There is still no hgeneral presumption available to the PPCs. Hence one MSP attempting to introduce keeper liability in Scotland.
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motorist111
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 11:34
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QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 09:00) *
I think in that spectacular Scottish case the defendant admitted that they were the driver but refused to pay on the grounds that they thought they didn't have to.


Think that was the one where someone in dundee lost in court and was made to pay £24000.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegrap...00-ignored/amp/

I was referring to the other dundee case involving 3 nurses at ninewells hospital. The thread on here that I have included in OP presumably was related to one of the 3 nurses who had ignored all pcns and then got the court letter
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The Rookie
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 11:39
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QUOTE (motorist111 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 12:34) *
The thread on here that I have included in OP

You mean the dead link you've copied from somewhere else where it was truncated?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Spudandros
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 19:16
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QUOTE (motorist111 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 12:34) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 09:00) *
I think in that spectacular Scottish case the defendant admitted that they were the driver but refused to pay on the grounds that they thought they didn't have to.


Think that was the one where someone in dundee lost in court and was made to pay £24000.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegrap...00-ignored/amp/

I was referring to the other dundee case involving 3 nurses at ninewells hospital. The thread on here that I have included in OP presumably was related to one of the 3 nurses who had ignored all pcns and then got the court letter


The 3 nurses case involved (surprise!) 3 nurses at Ninewell's Hospital who got multiple tickets (around a dozen or more) each. That makes it much more attractive for PPC to pursue to court in Scotland where the cost of pursuing a single ticket is out of all proportion to the amount being recovered. It also makes it much more difficult to deny being the driver. In this case none of them did. All admitted to being the driver. Their defence was that the charges were excessive and Indigo Park had no authority to pursue them as the contract at the time was with a seperate company Indigo Infra Dundee. The judge rejected the authority defence as it hadn't been raised when the initial defence was filed - suggesting they may have gotten a better outcome had they raised it at the proper time, and the charges were not excessive, but in line with other cases that had been heard.

As an aside, Ninewells can't wait to get rid of Indigo, but they are locked into a PPI contract that still has another 4 years to run.
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motorist111
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 19:34
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 12:39) *
QUOTE (motorist111 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 12:34) *
The thread on here that I have included in OP

You mean the dead link you've copied from somewhere else where it was truncated?


Sorry about the dead link. Here you go http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=111073

Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems that the OP here was one of the 3 nurses..read Post 92 onwards
Its clear the OP’s defence here included denying being the driver yet they lost
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 07:59
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How many cases have been brought siunce then?
None that we are aware of
Hence the advice remains unchanged.
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emanresu
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 08:24
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QUOTE
How many cases have been brought siunce then?
None that we are aware of
Hence the advice remains unchanged.


Agree with nosferatu1001 on that but the OP has also been told that cases are fact specific and won't share the specific facts. The postings have a whiff about them or should be in the Flame pit as previously advised.


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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The Rookie
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 08:45
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With a Nurse you will have evidence they are a nurse on site, will know about permits issued and may have other evidence tying them as likely driver to a specific car, that may be enough to convince a court on balance of probabilities, that doesn't mean its true (after all on BoP the Judge can be convinced one way just 51% and has to go with that, the 'plebgate' hearing is a good example of that).


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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motorist111
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:21
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QUOTE (emanresu @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 09:24) *
QUOTE
How many cases have been brought siunce then?
None that we are aware of
Hence the advice remains unchanged.


Agree with nosferatu1001 on that but the OP has also been told that cases are fact specific and won't share the specific facts. The postings have a whiff about them or should be in the Flame pit as previously advised.


Sorry but I'm confused as to how much I should reveal. After reading on here, it seems that you should not divulge the exact specifics of the case so thats why I blanked the case details in the picture of the letter I have attached.
What other details would you like? Desperate for guidance so any help would be much appreciated.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:57
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Well you need to give us SOME info otherwise we cannot possibly help

If youre that desperate you can easily, by reading other threads, see how much detial is given. Locaiton, what they allege, and keyt DATES and in case of an "overstay" TIMES are needed as well.
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BarrySmith
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 11:42
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QUOTE (motorist111 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:34) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 12:39) *
QUOTE (motorist111 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 12:34) *
The thread on here that I have included in OP

You mean the dead link you've copied from somewhere else where it was truncated?


Sorry about the dead link. Here you go http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=111073

Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems that the OP here was one of the 3 nurses..read Post 92 onwards
Its clear the OP’s defence here included denying being the driver yet they lost



I am the Op of the previous post.

I have still had no contact from anybody following submission of my defence.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 12:09
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They have to unPause, so nothing you can do right now.
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BarrySmith
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 13:41
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 13:09) *
They have to unPause, so nothing you can do right now.


How long can a case remain paused? If there's a change in the law would that affect the case?
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kommando
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:01
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If you are thinking of Murdo Fraser's proposed introduction of keeper liability in Scotland then it is highly unlikely that will be retrospective.

You can apply to restart the case even as a defendant.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rules-and-pra...procedure-forms

But you will need to formulate a reason for the restart and no doubt it will be fought by the claimant.

This post has been edited by kommando: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:05
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BarrySmith
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 19:59
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QUOTE (kommando @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 15:01) *
If you are thinking of Murdo Fraser's proposed introduction of keeper liability in Scotland then it is highly unlikely that will be retrospective.

You can apply to restart the case even as a defendant.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rules-and-pra...procedure-forms

But you will need to formulate a reason for the restart and no doubt it will be fought by the claimant.


Thanks. I didn't know about the murdo Fraser case though thought that would be the case that they could change the law and then go back on it as would create massive problems. I am in no hurry to get the case started as know that I wasn't the driver and have the evidence needed.
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Spudandros
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 11:41
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QUOTE (BarrySmith @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 20:59) *
QUOTE (kommando @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 15:01) *
If you are thinking of Murdo Fraser's proposed introduction of keeper liability in Scotland then it is highly unlikely that will be retrospective.

You can apply to restart the case even as a defendant.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rules-and-pra...procedure-forms

But you will need to formulate a reason for the restart and no doubt it will be fought by the claimant.


Thanks. I didn't know about the murdo Fraser case though thought that would be the case that they could change the law and then go back on it as would create massive problems. I am in no hurry to get the case started as know that I wasn't the driver and have the evidence needed.


Fraser's Parking bill is unlikely to pass. I've written to a number of people in the Parliament warning them its a Trojan Horse for keeper liability. You should do the same. Warn your MSP and ask him/her to pass it around colleagues. Fraser has previous on this acting for the BPA in 2015 in a previous attempt to introduce keeper liability, which got the BPA all excited. It failed.
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