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County Court Notice, Seeking guidance on defence
Doraemon
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 23:18
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Hello forum members,

My first post and I am seeking help from experts. Found some similar posts but not exactly.

Summary: Got a county court notice for a pvt parking offence in 2016. Been asked to pay 275 pounds approx. Notice acknowledged with 'intention of paying part claim' option

Background:
1. Company leased Car parked below apartment on first-come-first-serve allocated parking space.
2. Sticker normally placed on dashboard 365 days a year but one one bad night slipped off on the car floor. Next day PCN struck on windshield.
3. Fine appealed with CPM UK car park mgt admissing genuine lapse but not indicating who was driving. Promised this wont repeat but still appeal rejected. Had sent a copy of allotted sticker and a picture that it was on the car floor and told them I have not glued the sticker as it blocks drivers view.
4. More reminders sent by UK car park mgt but ignored
5. Debt collector starts sending letters addressing me by wrong name (spelling mistake).
6. Asked debt collector to settle for half fine but request rejected.
7. Debt collector sends more letters. By this time, I got frustrated and wrote back demanding proper photographic evidence that shows car registration number and windscreen all in one shot as windscreen pic was blocked by front hedge and registration number not visible. They give separate pics in bits and pieces.
8. Debt collector sends all pics and asks why am I demanding these pics now when in my first appeal accepted the lapse.
9. Finally recieve the county court notice before I could reply back. I was away during holiday period.

Defence points:
1. Had valid parking sticker allotted to my address.
2. Past judgement precedence (2015) in the case of Canterbury council fines where there was a judgement that ruled against the council on fines against flipped but valid parking tickets. This case is similar but its a pvt parking company.
3. The company knows that car is parked 365 days a week in that locality below the apartment and does have a valid sticker.
4. I am still willing to pay half the fine as initially proposed due to the part lapse as acknowledged in the appeal.

Do you think I stand a chance and how do I prepare the case? I am so frustrated, I feel like suing the company for the scamming business model they have developed. Why cant they invest in the technology to let an owner of a ticket to register the car against it so that the company or warden knows this car is authorised to park automatically on the site. This is like taking undue advantage of the disability of a human mind thats forgetful at times. Utterly criminal and unfair. I still have an option of a counter claim as the intention I gave in the court notice acknowledgement is not binding on me it seems.

Thanks and regards

This post has been edited by Doraemon: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 20:34
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post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 23:18
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ostell
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 06:44
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There are many things that could be in your favour here. Have you looked at you lease to say what is says about parking? Have you got a notice to keeper/hire from them in your own name?
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:11
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Yikes, why admit to part of the cost? That will go against you

What does your lease say? Flip this about - the space is most likely YOUR SPACE if it is alloacted. Unless your lease is VERY unusual, to the point of not being worth signing, there will be NO RIGHTS for the parking company to require ANYTHING from you.

So you need to tell us the EXACT parking company name
Date of issue of claim form
If you have a lease AST /etc and get that damn doc out and READ IT. s
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Doraemon
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 16:39
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QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 07:44) *
There are many things that could be in your favour here. Have you looked at you lease to say what is says about parking? Have you got a notice to keeper/hire from them in your own name?


My apartment registry document does not mention anything about the parking. I was made to join and fill up management services when I bought this property. I paid the fee and got the car parking sticker against my property address.

The PCN notice from UK Car park mgt came in my name after I appealed to them. Is that the question sorry?
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Albert Ross
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 16:50
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You appealed a window ticket, they replied to that and never applied to the DVLA for Keeper details.

Then they do not know who was driving when the car was parked and when you collected the car subsequently you informed them that you had a permit please cancel... In effect

Does the claim state that they are claiming against the Keeper or the Driver?


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Doraemon
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 16:53
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 11:11) *
Yikes, why admit to part of the cost? That will go against you

What does your lease say? Flip this about - the space is most likely YOUR SPACE if it is alloacted. Unless your lease is VERY unusual, to the point of not being worth signing, there will be NO RIGHTS for the parking company to require ANYTHING from you.

So you need to tell us the EXACT parking company name
Date of issue of claim form
If you have a lease AST /etc and get that damn doc out and READ IT. s


As I replied to the other question. No, my registry does not say anything about parking. My leasehold is between three parties i.e. me, landlord company and a management company. I have got no other documents when I bought this property apart from just the registry in my name. I do not have a specific numbered alloted car parking apace. There are marked slots for first come first serve parking below my property that I am autgotised to use.

The parking co.pany that fined me is CPM, UK Car Park Management. The date of claim is 19th Sept 2018.

My point is I have been parking below in these slots 365 days and only one occasion the sticker fell down. Is the parking company so niave to not realise my car is indeed authorised to be parked here? This is basically a waiting game to catch a person until he commits a mistake. I also want to argue why do these companies not invest in technology (if they are so worried and professionally want to manage parkings which is their business objective on paper) to allow a client tag a car with his sticker electronically rather than him having to physically glue a sticker on the windscreen? It would be so easy if the parking warden comes and just keys in the car registration no and boom gets a green sign i.e. the car is authorised to park it here or red...not authorise and then fine the culprit.

This post has been edited by Doraemon: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 17:00
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whjohnson
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 16:53
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What is the name of the private parking company who gave you the pcn? Full Name please.

You say that your lease does not say anything about parking. Is this correct?

You say that you signed something from the management company about parking and paid a fee. Is this correct?

Your lease does not say anything about parking. It does not say that you have a parking place included with your property?

Who are the management company? Name?

If your lease doesn not say anything about parking, then it does not say that you have to show a parking permit yes?

So who says that you have to show a parking permit? The management company?

You need to post up the lease here so that we can see it.

You also need to show or tell us what the paper from the management company said when you signed it and paid them money.


If your lease does not say anything about parking, then you do not have to display a parking permit.

We cannot be sure about this until we have seen your lease.
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Doraemon
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 17:09
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QUOTE (Albert Ross @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 17:50) *
You appealed a window ticket, they replied to that and never applied to the DVLA for Keeper details.

Then they do not know who was driving when the car was parked and when you collected the car subsequently you informed them that you had a permit please cancel... In effect

Does the claim state that they are claiming against the Keeper or the Driver?


The claim says...'The defendant was driving the vehicle and/or is the keeper of the vehicle'.

Although, I have admitted to the lapse in my first appeal to them but I have not indicated who was driving and whobparked it there.

QUOTE (whjohnson @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 17:53) *
What is the name of the private parking company who gave you the pcn? Full Name please. * CPM,. Address is Lancing BN155BR

You say that your lease does not say anything about parking. Is this correct? *Correct

You say that you signed something from the management company about parking and paid a fee. Is this correct? * Correct

Your lease does not say anything about parking. It does not say that you have a parking place included with your property? *Correct

Who are the management company? Name? * Crabtree manages the property.

If your lease doesn not say anything about parking, then it does not say that you have to show a parking permit yes? * I was justbasked to fill a joining form by manag3ment company i.e. crabtree.

So who says that you have to show a parking permit? The management company? *Yes, they asked me to contact CPM and get a sticker via email

You need to post up the lease here so that we can see it.

You also need to show or tell us what the paper from the management company said when you signed it and paid them money. *It was just a blank form really just asking for few details...no terms and conditions


If your lease does not say anything about parking, then you do not have to display a parking permit. *by lease you mean the aparment registry. No that does not say anything.

We cannot be sure about this until we have seen your lease.

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kommando
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 17:42
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The lease may not mention parking but in another section will normally give the lessee the 'right to peaceful enjoyment' ie the right not to be pestered by 3rd parties, so in your docs is there that or a similar statement.
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Doraemon
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 19:07
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QUOTE (kommando @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 18:42) *
The lease may not mention parking but in another section will normally give the lessee the 'right to peaceful enjoyment' ie the right not to be pestered by 3rd parties, so in your docs is there that or a similar statement.


Finally, found my lease in the box!

Okay so there is a para on parking that says:

...'The right in common with all others entitled thereto from time to time to park one domestic private motor vehicle only on the estate in any free parking space other than those specifically allocated or to be allocated '

Now the allocated parkings have numbers on them and others are first come first serve. My car was parked in the free slot.

Please tell me I can defend this case now. I would also like to go one step and put counter claim against CPM so that its a deterrence for them and they dont harass in others in similar cases.

This post has been edited by Doraemon: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 20:39
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Albert Ross
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 21:45
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You parked in a free bay which has not been allocated, as you are permitted.
The only ambiguity is if it is to be allocated. But even then until a bay is allocated it is first come first served.

Is that "right in common" described as a covenant or an easement?

You can defend the matter, it may be better to build a defence which they would not want to test in front of a judge.
A counterclaim will definitely be heard in court, it may be preferable to help it quietly die.


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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 21:58
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Sounds good, your lease appears to create an easement appurtenant, as I posted about on MSE here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=5888512

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth....php?p=71927313

See the case law mentioned there, in fact when you Google about actionable easements, you find loads of cases support your position.

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 22:37
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Doraemon
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 22:35
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QUOTE (Albert Ross @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 22:45) *
You parked in a free bay which has not been allocated, as you are permitted.
The only ambiguity is if it is to be allocated. But even then until a bay is allocated it is first come first served.

Is that "right in common" described as a covenant or an easement?

You can defend the matter, it may be better to build a defence which they would not want to test in front of a judge.
A counterclaim will definitely be heard in court, it may be preferable to help it quietly die.

Its an Easement...it says...Easements granted by this lease for the benefit of the property. Part 1 of the schedule.'...and that para was one of the points in Part 1 of the schedule.

To answer your other point, the unallocated parking slots have been like this since the begining of 2007 when it was built. I guess the builder probably had not sold all houses when this lease was created for the owner of my apartment.

Regarding the counter claim, do you support I should do that?
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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 22:39
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QUOTE
Please tell me I can defend this case now. I would also like to go one step and put counter claim against CPM so that its a deterrence for them and they don't harass in others in similar cases.
Good, yes of course you have a valid defence.

QUOTE
Regarding the counter claim, do you support I should do that?
Yes, written in the open on the forum, not taken off forum by someone.
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Doraemon
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 22:48
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 23:39) *
QUOTE
Please tell me I can defend this case now. I would also like to go one step and put counter claim against CPM so that its a deterrence for them and they don't harass in others in similar cases.
Good, yes of course you have a valid defence.

QUOTE
Regarding the counter claim, do you support I should do that?
Yes, written in the open on the forum, not taken off forum by someone.


Thanks very much. That gives me strength. Those links were useful too.

Regards

This post has been edited by Doraemon: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 22:49
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Doraemon
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 18:37
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Can I check one thing for confirmation pls? While acknowleding the claim online I chose the option of 'admit to part claim'.....Can I now go to a counter claim instead in the original 'Intent' ?

Would be wierd why not but just want to confirm. Thanks
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 08:18
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YOu can of course still counterclaim.
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Doraemon
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 10:10
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Ok. Thanks
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Doraemon
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:30
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 09:18) *
YOu can of course still counterclaim.


An observation has come out while preparing my defence and I need guidance.

I am reading there is a document from the 'Managent company' with the heading 'Sales Pack' and within that it says 'The purchaser will be required to enter into a Deed of covenant with the Managment Company' and within the pack there is a section on Parking that reads 'There is a parking regulation in place at this property and residents must have a permit to be able to park in the bay. Permits are available at a cost of 25 plus VAT. A copy of the scheme regulations pertaining to the unit address is available from the property manager upon request'

Now, obviously when I bought this property, all management fee and the parking fee was paid by me via my solicitor. Does this have any effect in my defence ? Does this impact my defence negatively?


PS: I will need a proof read of my defence most likely tomorrow.Would appreciate if members can also help with that. Happy to buy a pint! 😊
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SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 21:56
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QUOTE (Doraemon @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 22:30) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 09:18) *
YOu can of course still counterclaim.


An observation has come out while preparing my defence and I need guidance.

I am reading there is a document from the 'Managent company' with the heading 'Sales Pack' and within that it says 'The purchaser will be required to enter into a Deed of covenant with the Managment Company' and within the pack there is a section on Parking that reads 'There is a parking regulation in place at this property and residents must have a permit to be able to park in the bay. Permits are available at a cost of 25 plus VAT. A copy of the scheme regulations pertaining to the unit address is available from the property manager upon request'


You have not breached that covenant. There is nothing about displaying said permit, only ''having'' one. And nothing about the signage t&cs forming part of the covenant, nor anything about this innocuous comment creating any contract (to pay what? a penalty of £500?) and no relevant 'obligation' to do anything except 'have' a permit (could be kept on your mantelpiece...!).

So you said clearly to us that you do ''have a permit'':
QUOTE
Sticker normally placed on dashboard 365 days a year but one one bad night slipped off on the car floor. Next day PCN struck on windshield.



QUOTE
PS: I will need a proof read of my defence most likely tomorrow.Would appreciate if members can also help with that. Happy to buy a pint!
No probs - we will help, I am sure - do post it here.

If I help people, a pint is not my thing. Someone sent me a virtual bunch of flowers once which made a change among my messages!

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