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Finally Got CCC, NCP>Trace Debt Recovery>Gladstones>CCC
Newt75
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:11
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Firstly, apologies for this not being the first time someone's had to read this or similar stories.

Last year our vehicle was at an NCP site which uses ANPR. Exact details of what happened can be gone into in more detail if necessary, but we found ourselves receiving a 'Demand For Outstanding Payment' from Trace Debt Recovery. The amount was for £160 and their client NCP along with the date of PCN. No other details were given.

I phoned to inform them that this was the first notification we had of any incident and was told to put that in writing. This I did, politely declining their offer to pay the £160. I was also informed on the phone that we should have received 2 letters from NCP prior to this first letter. This was not the case.

I then received another letter from TDR stating that 'in the light of the fact you state you had not received the original notice, I have reinstated the full PCN amount of £100 for 14 days from the date of this letter'

This lead to much confusion as the PCN date quoted is 23/07/2017, and the Date of Posting This Demand is 10/04/2017.

On both of these letters we were informed that 'It is too late to appeal' and our 'Avenue of appeal has expired'.

Our next letter came from Gladstones Solicitors, again inviting us to make full payment withing 14 days. There were no particulars of the case or any evidence to support the claim. I'm unsure if I replied to this letter as I can't find a copy for reference (more fool me).

This was in November 2017 and was followed up with an LBC in February 2018. Again, there were no particulars, but this time they did include the location of the site in question. I replied to this letter using Gladstones website, acknowledging receipt and re-iterating their lack of detail and compliance with the rules.

Receipt of this was acknowledged, only for us to then receive another LBC in March. This we did not reply to, and yesterday (31/05/2018) received the full on County Court Claim Form. This now has the additional costs of £25 Court Fee, £50 Legal Rep Costs and interest of £9.69 continuing to judgement at £0.04 per day to judgement.

I've read as many posts as I could understand along the way to this point, and I fear I may have missed the opportunity to nip this in the bud a lot earlier than getting to this stage.

A CCJ is out of the question due to work restrictions, although am I correct that if we attend court and fail to defend, if we pay immediately then there'll be no record?

I know our first step is to acknowledge receipt of court papers, and then to build our case/ defense. And that's where you guys and gals come into play, as myself, I'm confused as heck as to what's what.

I know I have to do a lot of the work myself, but a firm prod in the right direction is definitely required.

Many thanks

*Topic Title edited after being corrected)

This post has been edited by Newt75: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:37
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post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:11
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SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 20:39
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See you at Witness Statement stage, so you don't miss the stages that are important before the hearing.
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Newt75
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 10:11
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So, now we have what appears to be the standard reply from Gladstones at this stage on their N180:

No to mediation
Yes to small Claims Track

Hearing Venue: PUSUANT TO PD27 (2.4) SEE REQUEST FOR SPECIAL DIRECTION AND N159. If the Defendant doesn't consent - Claimants home court.

No Expert evidence
Yes there are days they can't attend - Please see cover e-mail

And it's all duly signed - Gladstones Solicitors (Printed)

The Special Direction being that the case be dealt with on the papers as in our opinion it's "Relatively straight forward"


We've got our copy to file back with the Court, which seems very straight forward, it just needs a cover letter to:

1) Deny that the case is 'Straight Forward' and can be dealt with on papers because the Claimant has failed to

a) Provide any evidence or documentation pertaining to the claim, not least failing to comply with a formal request under CPR 31.14 to provide said documentation

b) Follow any Pre-action Protocols set out by the BPA

c) Adhere to the strict regulations set out by POFA2012

2) Point out that the Court should be the Defendants and not the Claimants


Do we need to add anything further at this stage?

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Newt75
post Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 19:49
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It's been 2 months now since the papers were returned, and we've received confirmation that the case will be heard at our local Court.

However, today we received a 'General Form of Judgement or Order' which reads:

IT IS ORDERED THAT

The Claimant shall file and serve a Reply to the Defence by 4pm 10/10/2018

Pursuant to CPR 3.3(4) this Order has been made without a hearing being held. If you object to the order, you may make an appointment to have it set aside, varied or stayed within seven days of receiving it.

Anyone got any suggestions as to where this is going from here?
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 01:22
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Suggests someone has read your defence and decided your points around their claim having no merit, have merit. They're essentially getting the claimant to do some actual legwork.
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Newt75
post Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 06:34
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 02:22) *
Suggests someone has read your defence and decided your points around their claim having no merit, have merit. They're essentially getting the claimant to do some actual legwork.


That's how I read it as well, essentially put up or shut up. Will Gladstones be required to copy the Court into anything they send us, and are we likely to get further instructions?
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Redivi
post Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 07:00
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So much for "the case is so straightforward that the Defendant is wasting everyone's time by wanting to know what the claim concerns"

This post has been edited by Redivi: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 07:01
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 10:26
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In general the C will have to file a copy at court of anything you send.
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Newt75
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:57
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Well, Gladstones had until today to respond, and we've received nothing. Is it just a waiting game now to see where it goes from here?
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 09:13
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4pm is the cutoff, so if you get nothing by tomorrow, I would write to the court stating the C has failed to serve on you the required Reply, and so you ask the court to use the powers to either strike the claim out or at least to Stay the claim until the Claimant files and pays the appropriate fee to lift the stay.
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Newt75
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 20:21
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I honestly think that these people must think that this is a joke. It probably is to them. Today (15/10) we received an E-mailed response from Gladstones, signed and dated today, a mere 5 days after the schedule set out by the court.

The response they have supplied is directly related to the Defence Statement we submitted, and not the request for any evidence, details or otherwise that we requested. Hopefully I've managed to put this together in a way which can be easily read, and any advice on where to go from here would be greatly appreciated.

QUOTE (Newt75 @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 22:39) *
Defence Statement

I, (insert name), the Defendant in this Claim deny I am liable for the entirety of the claim on the following grounds.

1) Particulars of the claim disclose no cause of action.

2) The Claimant claims that 2 PCN’s were issued via post. No PCN was issued to the vehicle and it is claimed that ANPR was being used as evidence to support this Claim. To date no evidence has been received to support either of these claims, thus making any defence near impossible.

3) The Claimant did not comply with POFA 2012 and give the registered keeper opportunity, at any point, to identify the driver. A Notice to Keeper can be served by ordinary post and the Protection of Freedoms Act requires that the Notice, to be valid, must be delivered no later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked. No ticket was left on the windscreen and no notice to keeper was sent within the 14 days required to comply with POFA 2012 only a ‘Demand For Outstanding Balance’ which was sent outside of the 14 day period, which did not comply with POFA 2012. This would exclude the registered keeper being liable for any charges.

4) In accordance with the BPA Code of Practice (of which the Claimant is a member), 22.1 ‘The procedures must give drivers and keepers the chance to appeal a Parking Charge Notice’. As no PCN was issued, the Claimant has denied this right to the Defendant.

The Defendant was also advised in writing that ‘it is too late to appeal the original parking ticket. In line with industry standards the next available level of dispute resolution would be the County Court’. This should not have been the case as the BPA CoP 22.1 states ‘The procedures must give Drivers and Keepers the chance to appeal a Parking Charge Notice’ and 22.2 ‘You must tell motorists at what stage the independent appeals service becomes available’. Again the Claimant has denied this right to the Defendant.

5) The Claimant has failed to follow PAP 6.a requiring them to provide ‘the basis on which the claim is made, a summary of the facts, what the claimant wants from the defendant, and if money, how the amount is calculated’.

The Claimant has been made aware of the failure to supply this information but has not complied with the requirements.

6) Upon receipt of the Letter Before Claim a compliant response was submitted to Gladstones Solicitors stating the lack of evidence and failure to follow protocol. This was submitted electronically and acknowledged by an automated response. However this letter of acknowledgement was ignored by Gladstones, and a further LBC followed. This was a carbon copy of the first LBC received and provided no further information.

7) Following the receipt of the County Court Claim a formal request under CPR31.14 was sent to Gladstones Solicitors requesting

a) A copy of the Claimants contract with the land owner
b) Copies of any photographic evidence held by themselves
c) Copies of all documents the Claimant intends to rely on in court
d) An explanation of all charges additional to the original PCN
e) A copy of the Claimants contract with Trace Debt Recovery and evidence that it’s charge was invoiced and paid.

No response was received to this request.

8) A question has arisen as to whether the Claimant has written authority from the landowner to pursue any legal course.

9) The Claimant has previously employed Trace Debt Recovery that added £60 to the parking charge. There is reasonable belief that the charge, added to the claim has not in fact been incurred.



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ostell
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 20:49
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I like their 2: "The Penalty Chrage Notice"!
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 21:11
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Well it is a 'reply to defence' but it shows you how little attention they pay to anything with these roboclaims.

The scandal is, they just don't have to, because people pay up and the UK's top Supreme court handed parking firms a dreadful decision to wave at people to make them comply, and the DVLA sell your/my/anyone's data to scum like the Claimant every day.

Gladstones don't actually care if they lose your case. It's a numbers game and this Country and the awful MCOL system supports it.
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Newt75
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 22:09
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So is it just a case of waiting now to see what happens? Is the fact that they didn't respond in time neither here nor there to them? I can only summise that if the boot was on the other foot it would come down pretty heavily.

It makes me smile that within their reply they deny sending 2 LBC letters (point 6) and yet we have them here. Also their idea of what constitutes the particulars of the claim differ from what I would expect... for example, perhaps the reason for the claim? It's almost as if it's legitimised black mail. 'We have something on you... We're not going to tell you what..., But if you don't pay us, You'll be in BIG Trouble!'
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SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 00:18
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Mention the late 'reply to defence' and the flagrant disregard for court deadlines, in your Witness Statement which is your commentary/facts summary in your own words (and you attach your evidence at that stage).
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 08:41
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Well you can now point out that using the term "penalty charge notice" is
misleading
misrepresentation
as they have NO legal right to charge a Penalty.

By describing it as such it is definitively a penalty (little "p") which cannot be recovered.

It was purely a Reply. It was never going to be about eivdence, as that wasnt what was Ordered by the court.
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Newt75
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 12:30
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 09:41) *
Well you can now point out that using the term "penalty charge notice" is
misleading
misrepresentation
as they have NO legal right to charge a Penalty.

By describing it as such it is definitively a penalty (little "p") which cannot be recovered.


You're going to have to enlighten the thick one here I'm afraid. Are they using the term Penalty Charge Notice and Notice To Keeper as the same thing when they are in fact two separate items? Is that what we're looking at here?
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 13:50
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No

Penalty Charge Notice is a reserved legal term for the documents councils stick on your car if you park on Double Yellow Lines.

By using the term, they are misreprenting the legal authority behind the mere INVOICE they actually sent (Notice to Keeper is still a parking charge notice and it is still an invoice) and, by doinb so, are misleading a consumer. They are clearly doing this deliberately as this is a formal Reply to Defence and not an incidental letter.

By CALLING IT a PENALTY, it is now a penalty (note small "p") and penalties cannot be recovered under English civil law. This is what the Beavis case was all about - that most unsually Parking Eye COULD recover somethign that is otherwise a penalty - but it required speicifc circumstances which dont apply here.
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