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Finally Got CCC, NCP>Trace Debt Recovery>Gladstones>CCC
Newt75
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:11
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Firstly, apologies for this not being the first time someone's had to read this or similar stories.

Last year our vehicle was at an NCP site which uses ANPR. Exact details of what happened can be gone into in more detail if necessary, but we found ourselves receiving a 'Demand For Outstanding Payment' from Trace Debt Recovery. The amount was for £160 and their client NCP along with the date of PCN. No other details were given.

I phoned to inform them that this was the first notification we had of any incident and was told to put that in writing. This I did, politely declining their offer to pay the £160. I was also informed on the phone that we should have received 2 letters from NCP prior to this first letter. This was not the case.

I then received another letter from TDR stating that 'in the light of the fact you state you had not received the original notice, I have reinstated the full PCN amount of £100 for 14 days from the date of this letter'

This lead to much confusion as the PCN date quoted is 23/07/2017, and the Date of Posting This Demand is 10/04/2017.

On both of these letters we were informed that 'It is too late to appeal' and our 'Avenue of appeal has expired'.

Our next letter came from Gladstones Solicitors, again inviting us to make full payment withing 14 days. There were no particulars of the case or any evidence to support the claim. I'm unsure if I replied to this letter as I can't find a copy for reference (more fool me).

This was in November 2017 and was followed up with an LBC in February 2018. Again, there were no particulars, but this time they did include the location of the site in question. I replied to this letter using Gladstones website, acknowledging receipt and re-iterating their lack of detail and compliance with the rules.

Receipt of this was acknowledged, only for us to then receive another LBC in March. This we did not reply to, and yesterday (31/05/2018) received the full on County Court Claim Form. This now has the additional costs of £25 Court Fee, £50 Legal Rep Costs and interest of £9.69 continuing to judgement at £0.04 per day to judgement.

I've read as many posts as I could understand along the way to this point, and I fear I may have missed the opportunity to nip this in the bud a lot earlier than getting to this stage.

A CCJ is out of the question due to work restrictions, although am I correct that if we attend court and fail to defend, if we pay immediately then there'll be no record?

I know our first step is to acknowledge receipt of court papers, and then to build our case/ defense. And that's where you guys and gals come into play, as myself, I'm confused as heck as to what's what.

I know I have to do a lot of the work myself, but a firm prod in the right direction is definitely required.

Many thanks

*Topic Title edited after being corrected)

This post has been edited by Newt75: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:37
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post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:11
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 08:33
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It does not have to mention ANPR, however if there was no ticket on the car, and just photos of leaving and entering, that can only be ANPR

COmpletely failing to name any form of breach is average for gladstones. Does it say on ANYTING pre-gladstones what the charge was for?
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Newt75
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 08:52
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 09:33) *
It does not have to mention ANPR, however if there was no ticket on the car, and just photos of leaving and entering, that can only be ANPR

COmpletely failing to name any form of breach is average for gladstones. Does it say on ANYTING pre-gladstones what the charge was for?


Unless I'm missing the meaning of some wording, the closest I can get is 'Our client National Car Parks, has written to you requesting payment for parking charges relating to the above Parking Charge Notice, however to date the debt has not been settled'

I can scan the letters from TDR and post them up in case I'm deliberately not seeing something (can't see the wood for the trees kind of thing), but that'll be this afternoon. As I've also covered, there's no previous paperwork prior to TDR to quote from.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 09:29
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Nope, dont care about debt recovery.
As there is no NtK you really need to get sight, and having made this clear to Gladstones they really cannot complain> The SAR will definitely help - dont delay sending that to NCP!
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Newt75
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 09:45
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So this is good to go, along with suggested ID such as V)5 and Council tax bill as I've seen examples of replies which have requested these, presumably to delay procedures.

Address

Date

Re. SAR
Ref. PCN **********
County Court Claim Number: ********

Under the GDPR 2018, I am writing to request copies of any information within your internal record systems with regards to a claim being filed against myself under the above number.

I would be grateful if you would provide ALL details, not least

1. Details and full copies of all contracts which you believe exist or have existed between myself and your organisation, including true copies of any documents you hold in support of the same.

2. Copies of any Photographic evidence held by yourselves, including ANPR data pertaining to the the claim and the purported parking charge itself. I require all data held and obtained from whatever means about myself and the vehicle, including but not limited to the KADOE DVLA request dates/data, the documents and letters you contend were sent and where/when, the data stored about the automated processing of the ANPR images of the car, proof stored of any manual checks made before issuing a PCN, ANPR images and any other data streams, such as exact or near-miss matches for this VRN from all/any PDT machines at that site around the material time on site.

Please find enclosed a copy of the VO5 to which the claim relates and also proof of identification in the form of a recent Council tax bill. (Question as to required or not)

If you need any more data from me, or a fee, please let me know as soon as possible. It may be helpful for you to know that data protection law requires you to respond to a request for data within one calendar month.

If you do not normally deal with these requests, please pass this letter to your DataProtection Officer, or relevant staff member. If you need advice on dealing with this request, the Information Commissioner’s Office can assist you. Its website is ico.org.uk or it can be contacted on 0303 123 1113.

Yours faithfully
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:24
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Dont mentiuon a fee. They cannot charge one unless is is excessive. Asking ONCe for all data convcernign you when they have a claim agsint you cannot be excesssive.

Yes include the ID. Stops them delaying.
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Redivi
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:51
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I wouldn't send that letter in response to a claim
It gives a full month to reply, long after your deadline to submit the defence

I would send instead to Gladstones :

Dear Sir

Ref ****

I have received the above claim

Please provide the following documents and information that you failed to provide in accordance with the Pre-action Protocol for Debt Claims :

1. A copy of your client's contract with the land-owner that must confirm that it has the written authority to take legal action in its own name

2. Copies of any Photographic evidence held by yourselves, including ANPR data pertaining to the the claim and the purported parking charge itself.

3 Copies of all documents that your client intends to rely on including but not limited to the KADOE DVLA request dates/data, the documents and letters you contend were sent and where/when, the data stored about the automated processing of the ANPR images of the car, proof stored of any manual checks made before issuing a PCN, ANPR images and any other data streams, such as exact or near-miss matches for this VRN from all/any PDT machines at that site around the material time on site

4 An explanation of all charges additional to the original parking charge notice

5 A copy of your client's contract with Trace Debt Recovery and evidence that its charge was invoiced and paid

6 Does your client intend to rely on the Protection of Freedoms Act to recover payment from the registered keeper ?
If so, why does it believe that it is exempt exempt from Para 4(5) and 9(5) of the legislation ?

Please regard this letter as a formal request under CPR 18 and 31.14 to provide all of the documents sent by your client.
Unless you are in the habit of issuing claims without inspecting clients' documents, you should already possess this information

Although the claim is for a sum that should be allocated to the small claims track, this has not yet occurred.
The provisions of CPR 27(2) are therefore of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise.

The documents and information will be essential to prepare a defence and the request is entirely in accordance with the Over-riding Objective and CPR 1.1(2)(a).
I require them within ten days of the date of this letter

Thank You

Yours Faithfully


This post has been edited by Redivi: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 14:12
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Newt75
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 13:42
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Top stuff, thank you people. I don't see any harm in sending both requests as it's only going to cost me postage and stationary. They will be in the post this afternoon.

Whilst I'm waiting on that, if anything should come of them, am I right in thinking that the next step is Witness Statement and to begin building a defense?
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Redivi
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 14:12
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Next step is the defence statement

Witness statement comes much later

Your defence statement will, with any luck, be able to include lots of points along the lines of :

The Particulars of Claim disclose no cause of action and the Defendant has no idea what the claim is about
The Defendant did not receive the original parking notice and has twice requested a copy without success


The Claimant has previously employed Trace Debt Recovery that added £60 to the parking charge
The Defendant has the reasonable belief that the charge, added to the claim, has not in fact been incurred
The Defendant has made a formal request to the Claimant's solicitor under CPR 18 and 31.14 for an explanation of the charge and evidence that it was paid
The solicitor has ignored the request
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Newt75
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 10:06
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Right then, if my maths is correct, today is the final day to submit the defence. The court papers are dated the 25 May 2018, so I hope I've got this right, allowing 5 days from the date and then 28 days from that.

As yet I've had no reply from Gladstones with regards to the last letter I sent them asking for all the details relating to the claim, so I'm working with no documentation to respond to.

I've bullet pointed a draft up from the posts I've been reading through and advice given on this thread, and all I can do is ask your patience with me in getting this finalised.
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ManxRed
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 10:11
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Add to the WS that your letter to them was not responded to, and places you at a disadvantage in forming a defence.


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Newt75
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 10:24
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 11:11) *
Add to the WS that your letter to them was not responded to, and places you at a disadvantage in forming a defence.


Does that go in the Defence or the Witness Statement, getting slightly confused between the two.
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Redivi
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 10:30
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See my Post #28 regarding a format to use for your defence points wherever possible

I've recently written a defence for a very similar situation when the first letter came from Trace

Gladstones has replied to the defence with their usual :

As the case is reasonably straightforward we intend to apply for a hearing on the papers

Now going to draft a letter for the court to remind it that the claimant's solicitor has failed to :

1 Explain why a PCN was never issued and hasn't supplied a copy
2 Disclose a course of action
3 Explain why it's brought a claim for different location
4 Explain why it's brought the claim when a court has previously ruled that the claimant has no legal capacity

The case isn't straightforward and Gladstones shouldn't be allowed to ambush the defendant by submitting papers that he has no opportunity to question
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ManxRed
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 10:42
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QUOTE (Newt75 @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 11:24) *
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 11:11) *
Add to the WS that your letter to them was not responded to, and places you at a disadvantage in forming a defence.


Does that go in the Defence or the Witness Statement, getting slightly confused between the two.


I would say Witness Statement, as that is an account of events/facts that have occurred. You sent them a letter on XXth YYYY 2018 given them X days to reply, however as of [today] they have failed to respond to this letter.


--------------------
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Newt75
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 10:47
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 11:30) *
See my Post #28 regarding a format to use for your defence points wherever possible

I've recently written a defence for a very similar situation when the first letter came from Trace

Gladstones has replied to the defence with their usual :

As the case is reasonably straightforward we intend to apply for a hearing on the papers

Now going to draft a letter for the court to remind it that the claimant's solicitor has failed to :

1 Explain why a PCN was never issued and hasn't supplied a copy
2 Disclose a course of action
3 Explain why it's brought a claim for different location
4 Explain why it's brought the claim when a court has previously ruled that the claimant has no legal capacity

The case isn't straightforward and Gladstones shouldn't be allowed to ambush the defendant by submitting papers that he has no opportunity to question


I've taken every point that you made into hand and as a bare bones have:

• No parking ticket issued
• No Notice to Keeper issued
• POFA? Date of alleged PCN 23/7/2017, date of first demand 13/9/2017
• Straight to Debt recovery
• Denial of appeal although NCP is a member of the BPA which does have a course of action.
• No evidence supplied following numerous requests
• LBC response was ignored (have automated proof of receipt from Gladstones)
• Particulars of the claim disclose no cause of action
• The Claimant has previously employed Trace Debt Recovery that added £60 to the parking charge
• Reasonable belief that the charge, added to the claim has not in fact been incurred
• Inflated costs against (policy, ethics, guidelines, rules?…) Is interest allowed?
• BPA says that debt collection must not exceed £70

I'm deliberately avoiding using the phrase "tantamount to blackmail", but at the moment that feels pretty accurate summation of the case.


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Redivi
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 11:40
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You need to put the points in a logical order

Something along the lines :

• Particulars of the claim disclose no cause of action
• No parking ticket issued. I would add that Gladstones has ignored request for a copy and prevented you defending

New point - NCP has no legal capacity unless written authority from landowner

• No Notice to Keeper issued and link to
• POFA? Date of alleged PCN 23/7/2017, date of first demand 13/9/2017 = cannot recover from keeper

The points that you would have made in an appeal such as poor signs in breach of BPA Code of Practice

• The Claimant has previously employed Trace Debt Recovery that added £60 to the parking charge
• Reasonable belief that the charge, added to the claim has not in fact been incurred
• (Even if paid), BPA says that debt collection must not exceed £70

If it's a pay car park, ParkingEye v Beavis says that penalty can never be disengaged
Neither can it be disengaged if company not in compliance with Code of Practice

Invite court to have regard to CPR 27.14 when disposing of cost of case (unreasonable behaviour)
• Refusal to consider appeal when NCP informed that PCN not received
• No evidence supplied following numerous requests
• LBC response was ignored (have automated proof of receipt from Gladstones)
• Straight to Debt recovery
• Inflated costs against (policy, ethics, guidelines, rules?…) Is interest allowed?

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Newt75
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 13:17
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This is looking pretty thin on the whole, I'm not entirely sure how much to pad it out, if required at all.

• Particulars of the claim disclose no cause of action

• No PCN issued – The Claimant claims that 2 PCN’s were issued via post. No PCN was issued to the vehicle as ANPR was being used. To date no evidence has been received to support either of these claims, thus making any defence near impossible.

• No Notice to Keeper issued - The Claimant did not comply with POFA 2012 and give the registered keeper opportunity, at any point, to identify the driver. A Notice to Keeper can be served by ordinary post and the Protection of Freedoms Act requires that the Notice, to be valid, must be delivered no later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked. No ticket was left on the windscreen and no notice to keeper was sent within the 14 days required to comply with POFA 2012 only a ‘Demand For Outstanding Balance’ which was sent outside of the 14 day period, which did not comply with POFA 2012. This would exclude the registered keeper being liable for any charges.

• In accordance with the BPA Code of Practice (of which the Claimant is a member), 22.1 ‘The procedures must give drivers and keepers the chance to appeal a Parking Charge Notice’. As no PCN or NTK was issued, the Claimant has denied this right to the Defendant.

• Failure to follow any PAP – The Claimant has failed to follow PAP 6.a requiring them to provide ‘the basis on which the claim is made, a summary of the facts, what the claimant wants from the defendant, and if money, how the amount is calculated’.

A compliant response to the issued LBC by Gladstones was ignored and a further LBC followed. This was a carbon copy of the first LBC received and provided no further information.

• A question has arisen as to whether the Claimant has written authority from the landowner to pursue any legal course.

• The Claimant has previously employed Trace Debt Recovery that added £60 to the parking charge. There is reasonable belief that the charge, added to the claim has not in fact been incurred.


I've been reading up the BPA code of practice and it states that charges should not be expected to exceed £100, and I believe it's the cost of debt collection which should not exceed £70. I'm not entirely clear as to whether I can use CPR 27.14 as it seems to pertain to Small claims, and I'm unclear as to how that stands.
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SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 13:31
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You need to pad it out into numbered sentences, not vague bullet points, and you won't be filling in the paper form, you will be emailing the signed/dated (under a statement of truth) defence to the CCBAQ justice email account (urgently...WITH THE CLAIM NO. AND 'DEFENCE' in the subject line).

I assume you did the AOS on MCOL a couple of weeks ago already, to buy you this time...but you are almost out of time now.

Have you not looked at ANY other defences on the forum yet, if not why not? This doesn't look like one. See some examples linked in the the second post, all about court and with pictured examples of how a defence should look, from headings to numbering, here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=4816822

You defence needs the usual headings, including the claim number and the word 'defence', plus a statement of truth and numbering.


Just quoting this below to remind us what this is about and the fact you have had no information in the woeful POC, even about the breach, the terms, nothing:

QUOTE
The exact words of the claim are:

The Driver of the vehicle Reg ******* incurred the parking charge(s) on ****** for breaching terms of parking on the land at ***. The Defendant was driving the vehicle and /or is the Keeper of the Vehicle.

The person named may or may not have been the driver.

We have never received a copy of the parking notice, it went straight to demands from Trace and we've had no supporting evidence other than assurances that 'In the light of the evidence we hold I have to advise that the PCN and its associated processes are in line with the industry standards and are compliant the BPA code of practice' Somehow I question how a £160 demand is in line and compliant.

Unfortunately the site named is a few hundred miles away


This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 13:31
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Newt75
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 14:08
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Yes, MCOL and AOS was done in plenty of time. Yes, I've read plenty of other threads and defences, although I've yet to find one which would act as a direct template.

I appreciate that this looks nothing like a finished copy and will pull it all together this afternoon in the correct format. For the time being I was making sure that it was easy enough to read.
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Newt75
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 21:39
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Hopefully this looks to be more in line with what SchoolRunMum wished to see:

IN THE COUNTY COURT

Claim Number: XXXXXXX

National Car Parks Limited

-and-

(Insert name here)

Defence Statement

I, (insert name), the Defendant in this Claim deny I am liable for the entirety of the claim on the following grounds.

1) Particulars of the claim disclose no cause of action.

2) The Claimant claims that 2 PCN’s were issued via post. No PCN was issued to the vehicle and it is claimed that ANPR was being used as evidence to support this Claim. To date no evidence has been received to support either of these claims, thus making any defence near impossible.

3) The Claimant did not comply with POFA 2012 and give the registered keeper opportunity, at any point, to identify the driver. A Notice to Keeper can be served by ordinary post and the Protection of Freedoms Act requires that the Notice, to be valid, must be delivered no later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked. No ticket was left on the windscreen and no notice to keeper was sent within the 14 days required to comply with POFA 2012 only a ‘Demand For Outstanding Balance’ which was sent outside of the 14 day period, which did not comply with POFA 2012. This would exclude the registered keeper being liable for any charges.

4) In accordance with the BPA Code of Practice (of which the Claimant is a member), 22.1 ‘The procedures must give drivers and keepers the chance to appeal a Parking Charge Notice’. As no PCN was issued, the Claimant has denied this right to the Defendant.

The Defendant was also advised in writing that ‘it is too late to appeal the original parking ticket. In line with industry standards the next available level of dispute resolution would be the County Court’. This should not have been the case as the BPA CoP 22.1 states ‘The procedures must give Drivers and Keepers the chance to appeal a Parking Charge Notice’ and 22.2 ‘You must tell motorists at what stage the independent appeals service becomes available’. Again the Claimant has denied this right to the Defendant.

5) The Claimant has failed to follow PAP 6.a requiring them to provide ‘the basis on which the claim is made, a summary of the facts, what the claimant wants from the defendant, and if money, how the amount is calculated’.

The Claimant has been made aware of the failure to supply this information but has not complied with the requirements.

6) Upon receipt of the Letter Before Claim a compliant response was submitted to Gladstones Solicitors stating the lack of evidence and failure to follow protocol. This was submitted electronically and acknowledged by an automated response. However this letter of acknowledgement was ignored by Gladstones, and a further LBC followed. This was a carbon copy of the first LBC received and provided no further information.

7) Following the receipt of the County Court Claim a formal request under CPR31.14 was sent to Gladstones Solicitors requesting

a) A copy of the Claimants contract with the land owner
b) Copies of any photographic evidence held by themselves
c) Copies of all documents the Claimant intends to rely on in court
d) An explanation of all charges additional to the original PCN
e) A copy of the Claimants contract with Trace Debt Recovery and evidence that it’s charge was invoiced and paid.

No response was received to this request.

8) A question has arisen as to whether the Claimant has written authority from the landowner to pursue any legal course.

9) The Claimant has previously employed Trace Debt Recovery that added £60 to the parking charge. There is reasonable belief that the charge, added to the claim has not in fact been incurred.

STATEMENT OF TRUTH
I confirm that the contents of this defence are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection

(sign in this space)

(Insert Name)
(Insert Date)


I'm woefully aware as to the time constraints in place and that I should have been better prepared, but any amendments would be appreciated.
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Newt75
post Wed, 27 Jun 2018 - 08:13
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Just a quick amendment and bump before I scan and mail this as I believe today is day 33 and it needs to be gone.

I've also added to the top line:

I, (insert name) the Defendant in this Claim and Registered Keeper of vehicle
XXXXXXX
deny I am liable for the entirety of the claim on the following grounds.
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