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Finally Got CCC, NCP>Trace Debt Recovery>Gladstones>CCC
Newt75
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:11
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Firstly, apologies for this not being the first time someone's had to read this or similar stories.

Last year our vehicle was at an NCP site which uses ANPR. Exact details of what happened can be gone into in more detail if necessary, but we found ourselves receiving a 'Demand For Outstanding Payment' from Trace Debt Recovery. The amount was for £160 and their client NCP along with the date of PCN. No other details were given.

I phoned to inform them that this was the first notification we had of any incident and was told to put that in writing. This I did, politely declining their offer to pay the £160. I was also informed on the phone that we should have received 2 letters from NCP prior to this first letter. This was not the case.

I then received another letter from TDR stating that 'in the light of the fact you state you had not received the original notice, I have reinstated the full PCN amount of £100 for 14 days from the date of this letter'

This lead to much confusion as the PCN date quoted is 23/07/2017, and the Date of Posting This Demand is 10/04/2017.

On both of these letters we were informed that 'It is too late to appeal' and our 'Avenue of appeal has expired'.

Our next letter came from Gladstones Solicitors, again inviting us to make full payment withing 14 days. There were no particulars of the case or any evidence to support the claim. I'm unsure if I replied to this letter as I can't find a copy for reference (more fool me).

This was in November 2017 and was followed up with an LBC in February 2018. Again, there were no particulars, but this time they did include the location of the site in question. I replied to this letter using Gladstones website, acknowledging receipt and re-iterating their lack of detail and compliance with the rules.

Receipt of this was acknowledged, only for us to then receive another LBC in March. This we did not reply to, and yesterday (31/05/2018) received the full on County Court Claim Form. This now has the additional costs of £25 Court Fee, £50 Legal Rep Costs and interest of £9.69 continuing to judgement at £0.04 per day to judgement.

I've read as many posts as I could understand along the way to this point, and I fear I may have missed the opportunity to nip this in the bud a lot earlier than getting to this stage.

A CCJ is out of the question due to work restrictions, although am I correct that if we attend court and fail to defend, if we pay immediately then there'll be no record?

I know our first step is to acknowledge receipt of court papers, and then to build our case/ defense. And that's where you guys and gals come into play, as myself, I'm confused as heck as to what's what.

I know I have to do a lot of the work myself, but a firm prod in the right direction is definitely required.

Many thanks

*Topic Title edited after being corrected)

This post has been edited by Newt75: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:37
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post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:11
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peterguk
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:18
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Just to be accurate, you have not got a CCJ. You've received a CC Claim Form.

To get a CCJ registered against you, you need to lose in court, and then not pay within 28 days.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:18


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Newt75
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:26
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:18) *
Just to be accurate, you have not got a CCJ. You've received a CC Claim Form.

To get a CCJ registered against you, you need to lose in court, and then not pay within 28 days.


Thank you Peter, that's just taken a lot of the stress off and is going to make this a lot easier to stomach.
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Redivi
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 13:47
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Can you confirm the full and exact name of the company you've called NCP ?

Court claims from National Car Parks are almost unknown and, as members of the British Parking Association, it's strange that they would issue a claim via Gladstones, an organisation that's to all intents and purposes identical to the IPC, a rival trade association
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Newt75
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 14:05
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 14:47) *
Can you confirm the full and exact name of the company you've called NCP ?

Court claims from National Car Parks are almost unknown and, as members of the British Parking Association, it's strange that they would issue a claim via Gladstones, an organisation that's to all intents and purposes identical to the IPC, a rival trade association


Claimant: National Car Parks Limited
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Jlc
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 19:25
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Ok, looks like they've finally grown a pair again. They will have a large back catalogue of unpaid charges to roboclaim...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Newt75
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 19:59
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 20:25) *
Ok, looks like they've finally grown a pair again. They will have a large back catalogue of unpaid charges to roboclaim...


Is that Gladstones or NCP?
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Jlc
post Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 20:50
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NCP...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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emanresu
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 05:05
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Seems it is a corporate ticket which are easier than a Joe Public one as most companies will pay up.

Is it a company registered car?

This post has been edited by emanresu: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 05:06


--------------------
Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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Newt75
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 10:55
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QUOTE (emanresu @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 06:05) *
Seems it is a corporate ticket which are easier than a Joe Public one as most companies will pay up.

Is it a company registered car?


Nope, not a company vehicle, privately owned by us.
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Redivi
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 11:07
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It's confusing when you use words like "we" and "us"

I assume that Gladstones has issued a claim against you personally as the registered keeper on behalf of NCP

Are you able to state with reasonable certainty that you weren't the driver ?
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Newt75
post Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 20:43
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 12:07) *
It's confusing when you use words like "we" and "us"

I assume that Gladstones has issued a claim against you personally as the registered keeper on behalf of NCP

Are you able to state with reasonable certainty that you weren't the driver ?


The claim is issued against the Registered Keeper/ Driver

And I neither Admit or Deny I was the Driver.
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Redivi
post Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 01:16
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QUOTE (Newt75 @ Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 21:43) *
QUOTE (Redivi @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 12:07) *
It's confusing when you use words like "we" and "us"

I assume that Gladstones has issued a claim against you personally as the registered keeper on behalf of NCP

Are you able to state with reasonable certainty that you weren't the driver ?


The claim is issued against the Registered Keeper/ Driver
Are you personally the registered keeper and are those the exact words on the Particulars of Claim ?

And I neither Admit or Deny I was the Driver.
If the chances are better than 50:50 that the driver was not the registered keeper, it provides an extra defence point

Have you ever received a copy of the Parking Notice because Exact details of what happened can be gone into in more detail if necessary suggests that you in fact know what it concerns ?
Inadequate signage is a defence point and NCP is notorious for terms and conditions in fine print on 3000 word notices mounted below the level of vehicle windows

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Newt75
post Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 21:27
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 02:16) *
QUOTE (Newt75 @ Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 21:43) *
QUOTE (Redivi @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 12:07) *
It's confusing when you use words like "we" and "us"

I assume that Gladstones has issued a claim against you personally as the registered keeper on behalf of NCP

Are you able to state with reasonable certainty that you weren't the driver ?


The claim is issued against the Registered Keeper/ Driver
Are you personally the registered keeper and are those the exact words on the Particulars of Claim ?

And I neither Admit or Deny I was the Driver.
If the chances are better than 50:50 that the driver was not the registered keeper, it provides an extra defence point

Have you ever received a copy of the Parking Notice because Exact details of what happened can be gone into in more detail if necessary suggests that you in fact know what it concerns ?
Inadequate signage is a defence point and NCP is notorious for terms and conditions in fine print on 3000 word notices mounted below the level of vehicle windows




The exact words of the claim are:

The Driver of the vehicle Reg ******* incurred the parking charge(s) on ****** for breaching terms of parking on the land at ***. The Defendant was driving the vehicle and /or is the Keeper of the Vehicle.

The person named may or may not have been the driver.

We have never received a copy of the parking notice, it went straight to demands from Trace and we've had no supporting evidence other than assurances that 'In the light of the evidence we hold I have to advise that the PCN and its associated processes are in line with the industry standards and are compliant the BPA code of practice' Somehow I question how a £160 demand is in line and compliant.

Unfortunately the site named is a few hundred miles away and we're unable to get any pictures of signage. I suppose a visit could be arranged and added to the costs?
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ostell
post Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 21:39
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Tried google maps to get a view of the car park?
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Newt75
post Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 22:04
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QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 22:39) *
Tried google maps to get a view of the car park?


I've just tried your suggestion and yup, found the car park and signage, although I can't actually read any of it from the images (and yes, I've used a graphics package to blow it up etc).
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 6 Jun 2018 - 07:05
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Have a look around for facebook groups of local places

How about sending, NOW, a SAR to NCP for a copy of ALL documents they hold on you? They MUSt repsond within 30 days. Within that require them to send copies of signage, as these must be in any case-file they have passed to their solicitors.
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Newt75
post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 21:15
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 6 Jun 2018 - 08:05) *
Have a look around for facebook groups of local places

How about sending, NOW, a SAR to NCP for a copy of ALL documents they hold on you? They MUSt repsond within 30 days. Within that require them to send copies of signage, as these must be in any case-file they have passed to their solicitors.


We've found an FB group and I should be getting pictures of the signage in the next couple of days.

With regards to a SAR, I know I'm pushing it for time, but now that it's free under the new GDPR regulations, there's no harm in getting in there. I'm no great letter writer and haven't been able to find a template for a SAR that's relevant, but would something along these lines be acceptable:

Address

Date

Re. SAR
Ref. PCN **********
County Court Claim no. ********

Dear Sir/ Madam


Under the GDPR 2018, I am writing to request copies of any information within your internal record systems with regards to a claim being filed against myself under the above number.

I would be grateful if you would provide ALL details, not least

1. Details and full copies of all contracts which you believe exist or have existed between myself and your organisation, including true copies of any documents you hold in support of the same.

2. Copies of any Photographic evidence held by yourselves, including ANPR data pertaining to the the claim.

3. Copies of any Correspondence pertaining to the claim

4.... I kind of got stuck at this point.....

Please find enclosed a copy of the VO5 to which the claim relates and also proof of identification in the form of a recent Council tax bill. (Question as to required or not)

If you need any more data from me, or a fee, please let me know as soon as possible. It may be helpful for you to know that data protection law requires you to respond to a request for data within one calendar month.

If you do not normally deal with these requests, please pass this letter to your DataProtection Officer, or relevant staff member. If you need advice on dealing with this request, the Information Commissioner’s Office can assist you. Its website is ico.org.uk or it can be contacted on 0303 123 1113.

Yours faithfully


The final bit is a direct copy from the ICO page itself. I'm not sure if the part apart requiring a fee should be included as these details should be free, but I'm pretty sure they would come up with something just to be obtuse.

Also, would it be worth sending a copy or variant to Gladstones? I believe all of this information should have been supplied by now under the PAP shouldn't it?

Many thanks for all your help to date.
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SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 23:57
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So Gladstones have recently convinced NCP that they can get them a few bob from their back catalogue of unpaid fake PCNs.

We are here to ensure that's not the case for readers of this forum, from any PPC!

Send the SAR off, but I would change 'pertaining to the claim' to:

QUOTE
pertaining to the claim and the purported parking charge itself. I require all data held and obtained from whatever means about myself and the vehicle, including but not limited to the KADOE DVLA request dates/data, the documents and letters you contend were sent and where/when, the data stored about the automated processing of the ANPR images of the car, proof stored of any manual checks made before issuing a PCN, ANPR images and any other data streams, such as exact or near-miss matches for this VRN from all/any PDT machines at that site around the material time on site.


Read this thread, second post, and do the AOS online first:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=4816822

That extends your time to defend to 28 days so you have June to finalise a defence. Pretty sure there is an NCP defence on MSE forums recently but if not, the NEWBIES FAQS thread linked shows you example ANPR (camera ticket) defence wording to crib from.
QUOTE
Exact details of what happened can be gone into in more detail if necessary

Yes please:

- what sort of car park, retail, train station, where?

- what contravention, ''no permit''? No PDT machine ticket at all (why)? Expired PDT (how long overstay)? Wrong VRN (small error)?
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Newt75
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 07:00
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OK, so I need to change point 2 to read

2. Copies of any Photographic evidence held by yourselves, including ANPR data pertaining to the the claim and the purported parking charge itself. I require all data held and obtained from whatever means about myself and the vehicle, including but not limited to the KADOE DVLA request dates/data, the documents and letters you contend were sent and where/when, the data stored about the automated processing of the ANPR images of the car, proof stored of any manual checks made before issuing a PCN, ANPR images and any other data streams, such as exact or near-miss matches for this VRN from all/any PDT machines at that site around the material time on site.

And lose any further points as I believe this covers the third.

Already done the AOS via MCOL. That's not as scary as it looks on the threads.

Nature of the car park: Just a simple parking lot, pay and display just off the main road. No attendant.

Contravention: Unnamed. Nowhere on any paperwork does it state what the charge is for. And having just re-read the paperwork to check that, I am now aware that it doesn't quote ANPR anywhere either. That's from my personal notes when I phoned up after receiving the first demand. I challenged the fact that no PCN was issued to the vehicle and was told that it was an ANPR capture and no PCN would have been issued on site.

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