Red Route fine - payment rejected and now facing £278 fine Options

[ramboram]

In Janaury I parked in a red route bay at 9am and it only allowed loading from 10am. Fair enough, this was a hire van and I was moving house so very stressed. I accepted the fine and paid the £65 online and have received a receipt saying there is no outstanding balance and forget about it.

A few months later I received another fine for the same infraction to my current address for £120 - at this point I go through my bank statements and see that the transaction has been refunded by Amex and never went through.

I appeal to TFL explaining the situation that I tried to pay in good faith, received no notification that the payment hadn't gone through so it's unfair that the fine has now increased and receive no response.

Yesterday I went to collect some post from my previous address and there are 2 letters from a solicitor Bristow and Sutor saying that they have been instructed to collect the payment on behalf of TFL - this now stands at £278 including their admin fee. What are my options here?

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[Neil B]

a PCN in my name for £130 late payment

There is no such thing.

This is why we need to SEE documents, not hear your interpretation of them.

[Neil B]

so what was the result of this representation you made.

I can see a out of time statutory declaration could be possible and if allowed a good chance of winning an appeal to an adjudicator

Looking at the case history it seems reps were late.
Just these crucial little details being left out of the story --- like ALL dates.

So OOT yes with TE9 on basis 'paid in full' I think. But I also don't get how the hire co had the wrong address?

[Neil B]

Ok, so I see you've been back and read the latest comments --- but said nothing more?

We can help yo make an application to reset this matter and then, as PMB said, possibly make a case to overturn
it altogether.

But we need to understand exactly what has happened because it can't be as you have interpreted it.

If you need help posting documents then just let us know.

[ramboram]

Ok, so I see you've been back and read the latest comments --- but said nothing more?

We can help yo make an application to reset this matter and then, as PMB said, possibly make a case to overturn
it altogether.

But we need to understand exactly what has happened because it can't be as you have interpreted it.

If you need help posting documents then just let us know.

Hi Neil,

I phoned TFL yesterday and after a long conversation with them they said what some posters have mentioned above - that the PCN was issued to the van hire company, who emailed me a scan of it, I paid it online and got a receipt. The payment was refunded to me and PCN was reissued in my name. As I moved house the PCN was sent to my previous address as these are the details the van hire company had on file.

I have misplaced the paper copy I will keep searching for it - between moving house we also had a baby so things have not been very organised. Apologies for the confusion here but we had given some self addressed envelopes to the tenants in our old property to forward any post - I think that this is how I would have seen the new PCN for £130. I made a representation, received a confirmation (x4!) and never received a response: https://imgur.com/5CqwLlZ

TFL advised me to phone the Traffic Enforcement Centre and explain the situation. The TEC sent me OOT forms TE9 and TE7 to fill in and return to them. They advised once I've submitted these the enforcement procedure will be put on hold for 6-8 weeks until they have made a decision. If positive then they will cancel this PCN and issue a new one for the original £65 to my current address.

If anyone could advise on how to fill this TE9 and TE7 form to maximise chances of a positive outcome: I have uploaded screenshots of the questions I am unsure about:

https://imgur.com/GFL5PRh
- is this both: "I did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge Notice (Parking contravention)." & "The penalty charge has been paid in full." - I assume this is a London borough parking contravention as this happened in London, am I forced to only select one?


https://imgur.com/V5SWux6
- not sure on the best wording here, should I just explain the entire situation as above?

I've uploaded the whole form to Filebin here: https://filebin.net/02jot831q0v5h25o/5._OOT....doc?t=gcc2uj00

Thanks again for any help.

[Neil B]

If anyone could advise on how to fill this TE9 and TE7 form to maximise chances of a positive outcome:

You are right to be concerned about getting them correct; it's very important.

But so much is still not making sense:-

> Why did the hire co have your old address?

> The PCN that arrived in your name would have offered the chance to pay at discount £65. If, as you say, you then
realised the paid amount had been refunded why did you not just pay again?

> I'll answer my own question > because it wasn't a PCN at all, the TfL log shows it was a Charge Certificate for non
payment. Then at £195. It was then too late to make representations so those you made on 5th March were ignored. Somewhere
along the way you've missed the PCN, dated January, entirely I suspect.

> The next missing document is the Order for Recovery £203, which you haven't mentioned at all. When that isn't paid or responded
to a warrant is issued.

So it seems to boil down to the same old thing we see time and time again, an address cock up.

Is this making sense now?

- not sure on the best wording here, should I just explain the entire situation as above?

You first need to understand the question.
The OfR would have allowed you to respond with a witness statement (TE9) if any documents had gone
astray. The matter would then have automatically been reset. There was a limited time to file that WS.
So TE7 is asking you what caused you to need to file TE9 late?

I'm not quite sure what the answer is because only you can tell us.

[PASTMYBEST]

Th question i ask is If the second PCN was addressed to the old address Then a OOT on that basis is fine but you must show when you moved But they acknowledge receipt of representations ( the second one) and send an e mail receipt for it So IMO it could also be made reps but no response

Which is right an e mail receipt is not reliant on address

[stamfordman]

There's a hole in the system here where a PCN is sent to someone for info and they just pay it, which they are entitled to do, and think no more of it. I assume the OP had his old address on the hire agreement, as that's taken from the driving licence no doubt.

The missing link is that the OP had to tell the hire firm he'd paid it.

This also raises the question of why TFL would proceed with a transfer when the PCN has been paid.

[ramboram]

If anyone could advise on how to fill this TE9 and TE7 form to maximise chances of a positive outcome:

You are right to be concerned about getting them correct; it's very important.

But so much is still not making sense:-

> Why did the hire co have your old address?

> The PCN that arrived in your name would have offered the chance to pay at discount £65. If, as you say, you then
realised the paid amount had been refunded why did you not just pay again?

> I'll answer my own question > because it wasn't a PCN at all, the TfL log shows it was a Charge Certificate for non
payment. Then at £195. It was then too late to make representations so those you made on 5th March were ignored. Somewhere
along the way you've missed the PCN, dated January, entirely I suspect.

> The next missing document is the Order for Recovery £203, which you haven't mentioned at all. When that isn't paid or responded
to a warrant is issued.

So it seems to boil down to the same old thing we see time and time again, an address cock up.

Is this making sense now?

- not sure on the best wording here, should I just explain the entire situation as above?

You first need to understand the question.
The OfR would have allowed you to respond with a witness statement (TE9) if any documents had gone
astray. The matter would then have automatically been reset. There was a limited time to file that WS.
So TE7 is asking you what caused you to need to file TE9 late?

I'm not quite sure what the answer is because only you can tell us.

> Why did the hire co have your old address?
I hired the van to move house, so the day I hired it my driving licence was registered at my previous address in North London and I had to put this address into the hire form at the van company, I remember telling them this and asking them which address to put down and they said to just use the address on my driving licence. The day I returned the van I was living at the new address in South London.

> The PCN that arrived in your name would have offered the chance to pay at discount £65. If, as you say, you then
realised the paid amount had been refunded why did you not just pay again?
I never saw a PCN in my name for £65 as it would have gone to my previous address, this wasn't forwarded to me by the new tenants. When they forwarded the late payment fine for £130 in March, I went through my credit card statements to check it had gone through and saw that the payment had been made and then refunded a few days later. I didn't see that there had been refund until this point which is when I made the representation asking if I can pay the original £65 fee as I had already attempted to pay it and it was refunded.

> I'll answer my own question > because it wasn't a PCN at all, the TfL log shows it was a Charge Certificate for non
payment. Then at £195. It was then too late to make representations so those you made on 5th March were ignored. Somewhere
along the way you've missed the PCN, dated January, entirely I suspect.

> The next missing document is the Order for Recovery £203, which you haven't mentioned at all. When that isn't paid or responded
to a warrant is issued.


Again - all of these letters were going to my previous address, the new tenants didn't include these in any of the self addressed envelopes we left for them, maybe they were accidentally discarded or they never arrived - but I did not see any correspondence from TFL in between the £130 PCN in March which I appealed and the £278 notice from the enforcement agents in July. I think address cock up sounds correct!


So TE7 is asking you what caused you to need to file TE9 late?

I'm not quite sure what the answer is because only you can tell us.

I'm filing the TE9 late because I did not see any correspondence from TFL between making the representation in March and receiving the enforcement letters in July because I had moved house and not all of my post had been forwarded to me by the new tenants. I made a payment on the 14th January when the van hire company emailed me a scan of the PCN and believed that I had already paid in full and that the matter was settled and have a receipt to prove this. Because I had made the payment and have a receipt I thought there had been an error on TFLs part.

Does that make sense? I still haven't found the PCN addressed to me but this is the one the van hire company forwarded to me: https://imgur.com/FvZKxxD

Thanks

There's a hole in the system here where a PCN is sent to someone for info and they just pay it, which they are entitled to do, and think no more of it. I assume the OP had his old address on the hire agreement, as that's taken from the driving licence no doubt.

The missing link is that the OP had to tell the hire firm he'd paid it.

This also raises the question of why TFL would proceed with a transfer when the PCN has been paid.

The hire company charged me a £50 admin fee for getting a PCN - when they called me to tell me this I asked them to email a scan of the PCN and told them verbally over the phone that I would pay it.

[stamfordman]

The hire company charged me a £50 admin fee for getting a PCN - when they called me to tell me this I asked them to email a scan of the PCN and told them verbally over the phone that I would pay it.

Well that's more of the story - how was it left? And was the full £50 taken just for telling you about the PCN? That's a steep admin fee.

[ramboram]

The hire company charged me a £50 admin fee for getting a PCN - when they called me to tell me this I asked them to email a scan of the PCN and told them verbally over the phone that I would pay it.

Well that's more of the story - how was it left? And was the full £50 taken just for telling you about the PCN? That's a steep admin fee.

Yes they charged my credit card automatically - I was annoyed about this obviously (it was in the hire agreement, lesson learned there) so when they called me they asked if I intended to pay it, I said yes and asked them to forward the PCN and paid it 4 days later. I didn't realise that it would be reissued in my name, I don't hire often.

[Neil B]

It's making much more sense but one thing you don't yet appear to understand.>

When they forwarded the late payment fine for £130 in March,

I've already told you there is no such thing.

I can see from the TfL log that the PCN, in your name, was issued in January.
The notice issued in March was the Charge Certificate and that will have been for £195.
You did receive it because you responded to it.

@ members >
Unless, of course, TfL records still thought £65 had been paid, i.e. forgotten about the refund?

It doesn't help that rambo doesn't seem to have these notices now.

We just need to be clear what was and what wasn't received.

Couple of things I'm still curious about >

> The TfL log refers to a refund being 'requested'. What is that all about?

> It also shows further enquiries being made after the attempted representations. Was that you Rambo?

[Neil B]

But they acknowledge receipt of representations ( the second one) and send an e mail receipt for it So IMO it could also be made reps but no response

Which is right an e mail receipt is not reliant on address

I'm not keen, so far, on using 'reps made, no reply' cos of how it pans out later at adjudication.

All he got was an auto-acknowledgement and I can imagine it's set up like that as a human first has to make the decision
whether or not to accept and consider late reps.
They are perfectly entitled to then ignore them.

It's sounding much more like PCN not received?

I'd really like to know why the payment was refunded? Looking at the date of first mention it's the same as the date hire co
reps were accepted. I'm wondering if the hire co naused this up by something they said in reps?


I'm sure we'll unravel it eventually.

There's a hole in the system here where a PCN is sent to someone for info and they just pay it, which they are entitled to do,

Absolutely.
Hence I'm still toying with the possibility of using 'PCN paid in full'.

[PASTMYBEST]

But they acknowledge receipt of representations ( the second one) and send an e mail receipt for it So IMO it could also be made reps but no response

Which is right an e mail receipt is not reliant on address

I'm not keen, so far, on using 'reps made, no reply' cos of how it pans out later at adjudication.

All he got was an auto-acknowledgement and I can imagine it's set up like that as a human first has to make the decision
whether or not to accept and consider late reps.
They are perfectly entitled to then ignore them.

It's sounding much more like PCN not received?

I'd really like to know why the payment was refunded? Looking at the date of first mention it's the same as the date hire co
reps were accepted. I'm wondering if the hire co naused this up by something they said in reps?


I'm sure we'll unravel it eventually.

There's a hole in the system here where a PCN is sent to someone for info and they just pay it, which they are entitled to do,

Absolutely.
Hence I'm still toying with the possibility of using 'PCN paid in full'.

Don't think it will wash Neil. Think its got to be PCN not recieved and make a very detailed statement in the OOT as to why

[Neil B]

Rambo, I imagine this is getting confusing for you but don't worry we'll work out a plan of action.

Just need to explain a couple of things first.

The TEC sent me OOT forms TE9 and TE7 to fill in and return to them. They advised once I've submitted these the enforcement procedure will be put on hold for 6-8 weeks until they have made a decision. If positive then they will cancel this PCN and issue a new one for the original £65 to my current address.

Most of that is correct.
Officially TEC make the decision. In reality TfL do because they can object to your application.
We need to get things absolutely right to dissuade them from doing that.

That you get a new PCN isn't quite true. That only applies if your TE9 claims you didn't receive the PCN (which so far appears to be true)
In all other circumstances TfL would be required to refer the matter to the adjudicator for them to sort out.

So, suggested action for now >

Please phone TfL again and try to keep it simple. Explain you just need to understand some issues so you can proceed. Ask them >

> The amount of the Charge Certificate dated 3rd March.

and separately >

> Why the £65 was refunded?

Just those questions; don't get into a big discussion. Just be polite.

And yourself > compare the hire co PCN number to the one being quoted by the bailiff co. Are they the same?

[ramboram]

Rambo, I imagine this is getting confusing for you but don't worry we'll work out a plan of action.

Just need to explain a couple of things first.

The TEC sent me OOT forms TE9 and TE7 to fill in and return to them. They advised once I've submitted these the enforcement procedure will be put on hold for 6-8 weeks until they have made a decision. If positive then they will cancel this PCN and issue a new one for the original £65 to my current address.

Most of that is correct.
Officially TEC make the decision. In reality TfL do because they can object to your application.
We need to get things absolutely right to dissuade them from doing that.

That you get a new PCN isn't quite true. That only applies if your TE9 claims you didn't receive the PCN (which so far appears to be true)
In all other circumstances TfL would be required to refer the matter to the adjudicator for them to sort out.

So, suggested action for now >

Please phone TfL again and try to keep it simple. Explain you just need to understand some issues so you can proceed. Ask them >

> The amount of the Charge Certificate dated 3rd March.

and separately >

> Why the £65 was refunded?

Just those questions; don't get into a big discussion. Just be polite.

And yourself > compare the hire co PCN number to the one being quoted by the bailiff co. Are they the same?

Hi Neil,

Thanks I will call them this afternoon. It might be that you are correct and it was a £195 charge notice and not a £130 PCN and I've remembered this incorrectly. I haven't been able to find it. I didn't request a refund myself that is certain.

The PCN number matches the 'client reference' number on the bailiff letter and the enforcement details also list the number plate of the van.

Thanks for all your help with this!

[Neil B]

So how did you get on?

[ramboram]

So how did you get on?

Hi Neil,

Please excuse the delay.

TFL said the charge notice dated 3rd March was £195.

The £65 refund was made due to a transfer of liability.

Let me know if you need any more information.

Thanks

[Neil B]

I'm quite unwell at the mo so limited availability to help.

I'm sure others will chip in.

Now you need to decide which box to tick on the form. From what you've told us it can only be 'PCN not received'.

Then you need to start drafting what you will say on the TE7. People here will then help you optimise it.
e.g. > including >

> How the PCN and OfR went missing.

> That this has all been very unfortunate since you had originally made payment when the hire co sent you a copy of
their PCN.


(they are actually correct in refunding but, like I say, all very unfortunate)

[stamfordman]

The hire firm should have said it was being reissued, especially when you said you would pay it. It may be that it was tagged for reissuing before they called you. Clearly TFL has no mechanism to reconcile the payment with the payee.

[PASTMYBEST]

Your reason for the late submission needs to be very detailed

Once upon a time i hired a van in order to move house. The hire company would only take the address as shown on my driving license. Unfortunately i recieved a PCN. This was sent to the hire company as the RK they sent a copy to me. I made payment. The hire company as well as sending the copy PCN to me also made representations seeking to transfer liability. TfL then refunded my card and sent a PCN to my old address the one given to them by the hire company I had left a number of self addressed evvelpoes addressed to my new address, the new occupier saying they would forward any mail by that method. Unfortunately they did not and the Three regulatory documents were delivered to the wrong (old address) I only found out about the unfortunate error in TfL refunding the payment and serving the second and third documents when a bailiff attended and served an enforcement notice demanding the sum of £278

I ask the court to allow this statutory declaration be allowed out of time due to the unfortunate circumstances not the fault of anyone


This needs filling out with dates names dates but something along these lines is needed