Dagenham-stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand |
Dagenham-stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand |
Fri, 17 Jul 2020 - 15:19
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,982 Joined: 19 Dec 2006 From: Near Calais Member No.: 9,683 |
Working for a bus company (as my name suggests) my car was being used in connection with the company operating the bus service. It had to stop at the bus stop for a very short time to deal with operational matters with roadside controllers and clearly had a label in the windscreen saying it was being used in connection with the TfL service. This was on Sunday evening 5th July from 20:43:32 to 20:43:44.
I received a PCN from Barking & Dagenham Council today 17/7/2020. It was a camera offence and the charge is simply stopping on a restricted bus stop or stand and the road name. I don't deny the car stopped there but I'm certain there,s an exemption fro vehicles used in connection with the operation of the bus service or th maintenance thereof, otherwise it would be impossible for any sort of service vehicle to maintain the bus stops. Can anyone point me towards the TRO for bus stops in the TfL area? Meanwhile if I can remember how to I'll post the PCN. |
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Fri, 17 Jul 2020 - 15:19
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Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 21:33
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,982 Joined: 19 Dec 2006 From: Near Calais Member No.: 9,683 |
Original PCN copy sent by PM.
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Fri, 31 Jul 2020 - 11:09
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 348 Joined: 30 Apr 2005 Member No.: 2,852 |
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Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 16:07
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSmFMt_5bQ8
Bus stops are scheduled section 36 signs and do not need a TMO. The circumstances you described are not permitted reasons to stop in a bus stop, the no stopping restriction is provided for here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/36...aragraph/1/made and the list of exception is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/36...aragraph/4/made There is no provision permitting a car to stop on a bus stop even if it is being used for operational purposes by the bus company (which might be surprising but it is what it is, and I suppose multiple bus companies might use the same bus stop, no particular bus company "owns" the bus stop). She if anyone else can come up with something but right now I think a plea for discretion is all you've got. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 16:23
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Ouch - video doesn't look good with buses using the stop.
Surely the question of using bus stops for operations has come up before for you? I would just play it straight - say you work for the company and you were engaged in operational matters - say what these were and why you had to do so at the location. Provide proof of employment. I wouldn't ask for discretion or claim an exemption - see what they come back with. |
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Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 16:45
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,325 Joined: 9 May 2014 Member No.: 70,515 |
Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSmFMt_5bQ8 Bus stops are scheduled section 36 signs and do not need a TMO. The circumstances you described are not permitted reasons to stop in a bus stop, the no stopping restriction is provided for here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/36...aragraph/1/made and the list of exception is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/36...aragraph/4/made There is no provision permitting a car to stop on a bus stop even if it is being used for operational purposes by the bus company (which might be surprising but it is what it is, and I suppose multiple bus companies might use the same bus stop, no particular bus company "[i]owns" the bus stop). She if anyone else can come up with something but right now I think a plea for discretion is all you've got.[/i] CP, What about exemption (f)a vehicle which is stationary in order that it may be used for one or more of the purposes specified in sub-paragraph (3) and which cannot be used for such a purpose without stopping on the marking. (3) The purposes are— (d)constructing, improving, maintaining or cleaning any street furniture (including, in respect of paragraph 1 only, bus stop infrastructure); or or possibly (e)the laying, erection, alteration, repair or cleaning of any sewer or of any main, pipe or apparatus for the supply of gas, water or electricity, or of any electronic communications apparatus kept installed for the purposes of an electronic communications code system or of any other electronic communications apparatus lawfully kept installed in any position. What was the precise purpose of the OP's stop? I lived in London until 2019, and vehicles were often stopping on 'bus stops to change the advertisements or clean the glass. |
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Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 16:46
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSmFMt_5bQ8 Bus stops are scheduled section 36 signs and do not need a TMO. The circumstances you described are not permitted reasons to stop in a bus stop, the no stopping restriction is provided for here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/36...aragraph/1/made and the list of exception is here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/36...aragraph/4/made There is no provision permitting a car to stop on a bus stop even if it is being used for operational purposes by the bus company (which might be surprising but it is what it is, and I suppose multiple bus companies might use the same bus stop, no particular bus company "owns" the bus stop). She if anyone else can come up with something but right now I think a plea for discretion is all you've got. The exemption at 3(d) might apply ( constructing, improving, maintaining or cleaning any street furniture (including, in respect of paragraph 1 only, bus stop infrastructure); or -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 20:41
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
It might, but the video just shows the car stopped while two people in the car and one person out of the car are engaged in some sort of conversation; "cannot be used for such a purpose without stopping on the marking" is quite a high bar and the authority could argue that nothing that is seen in the video made it necessary for the car to stop there, and it stopped there because it was convenient rather than because it was necessary.
So the OP would need to explain what constructing, improving, maintaining or cleaning of street furniture was taking place and why it was necessary for the vehicle to stop where it did for that activity to take place. If we'd seen evidence of bus stop equipment, advert boards or similar being unloaded I'd be all for it, but the video doesn't suggest anything of the sort. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 20:44
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
It might, but the video just shows the car stopped while two people in the car and one person out of the car are engaged in some sort of conversation; "cannot be used for such a purpose without stopping on the marking" is quite a high bar and the authority could argue that nothing that is seen in the video made it necessary for the car to stop there, and it stopped there because it was convenient rather than because it was necessary. So the OP would need to explain what constructing, improving, maintaining or cleaning of street furniture was taking place and why it was necessary for the vehicle to stop where it did for that activity to take place. If we'd seen evidence of bus stop equipment, advert boards or similar being unloaded I'd be all for it, but the video doesn't suggest anything of the sort. Agree the video is damming but lets see Roy's explanation -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 10:00
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,982 Joined: 19 Dec 2006 From: Near Calais Member No.: 9,683 |
Thanks for the help on this.
As I said in my first post, my car was being used on behalf of bus company business. It has a printed TfL label in the front window, just visible in the video on the lower screen, passenger side which clearly indicates it is being used in connection with that. The purpose of stopping there was to take service information literature for use at the bus stop, a rubbish bag and personal protective clothing for the service controller who is the person standing on the pavement wearing the hivis jacket. I was driving the car, my partner in the passenger seat was hading out his PPE and information for him to post and distribute on the bus stop infrastructure and to communicate with drivers on the service as part of his duties. He was based there for a 10 hour shift from about 1400 to midnight. We had stopped for slightly longer than intended to discuss some operation matters regarding the bus service. the video clearly (?) shows items being handed out from the car the the service controller on the pavement. I think I'll try using the exemption listed in the Act and use of discretion. I am not one to stop in a bus stop without very good reason. At this location there's 3 stops along the length of the marked bay, our service uses the stop nearest the camera. This post has been edited by roythebus: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 10:08 |
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Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 10:22
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Thanks for the help on this. As I said in my first post, my car was being used on behalf of bus company business. It has a printed TfL label in the front window, just visible in the video on the lower screen, passenger side which clearly indicates it is being used in connection with that. The purpose of stopping there was to take service information literature for use at the bus stop, a rubbish bag and personal protective clothing for the service controller who is the person standing on the pavement wearing the hivis jacket. I was driving the car, my partner in the passenger seat was hading out his PPE and information for him to post and distribute on the bus stop infrastructure and to communicate with drivers on the service as part of his duties. He was based there for a 10 hour shift from about 1400 to midnight. We had stopped for slightly longer than intended to discuss some operation matters regarding the bus service. the video clearly (?) shows items being handed out from the car the the service controller on the pavement. I think I'll try using the exemption listed in the Act and use of discretion. I am not one to stop in a bus stop without very good reason. At this location there's 3 stops along the length of the marked bay, our service uses the stop nearest the camera. QUOTE We had stopped for slightly longer than intended to discuss some operation matters regarding the bus service They don't need to know that. Only that you stopped to provide information materials and PPE to the controller to place at the bus stops. Remember the exemption only applies if you had to stop on the markings not that it was convenient -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 13:33
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
They don't need to know that. Only that you stopped to provide information materials and PPE to the controller to place at the bus stops. Remember the exemption only applies if you had to stop on the markings not that it was convenient +1, I don't see the exemption being available but I would angle for discretion in relation to COVID & PPE. Post a draft here before sending it off. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 3 Aug 2020 - 10:02
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,982 Joined: 19 Dec 2006 From: Near Calais Member No.: 9,683 |
OK thanks, will do. If they reject my initial appeal I'll take it to the adjudicator.
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Mon, 3 Aug 2020 - 17:17
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
OK thanks, will do. If they reject my initial appeal I'll take it to the adjudicator. Don't do so without showing us the rejection first. Frankly unless they make a mistake in the rejection, you have no real grounds to appeal to the adjudicator and if they re-offer the discount, you'd be throwing that away for nothing. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 6 Aug 2020 - 23:03
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,982 Joined: 19 Dec 2006 From: Near Calais Member No.: 9,683 |
OK, here's what I'm proposing to send to Dagenham Council as the appeal:
Re PCN xxxxx dated 05/07/2020, I wish to appeal the issue of this penalty charge notice for the following reason: the exemption under https:https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/part/6/paragraph/1/made/ and www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/part/6/paragraph/4/made I am employed by xxxBuses Ltd., a company contracted by TfL and London Underground to provide rail replacement bus services at weekends between Barking and Tower Hill as a bus driver which includes relief supervisor and service controller duties. My personal car is used for some of these roving duties. On the evening in question I had cause to go from the authorised bus stand in St. Pauls Road to the departure bus stop at Station Parade as the service controller there had used his supply of PPE during the course of his shift. He also required his hivis jacket, service information and other documents and information panels which form part of the bus stop infrastructure. My car was clearly displaying an official yellow and black TfL route sign in the passenger side of the front window indicating it was being used in connection with rail replacement service DL6. The video shows a female staff member handing this equipment out of the car window to the supervisor who was at the bus stop. There was a brief discussion about the running of the bus service and the car moved off after a few minutes. We are all clearly aware of the effects on delays to bus services caused by cars stopping on bus stops. I have copies of my duty roster and work sheets to prove I was on duty at that time and involved in the operation of the bus service. I would request that you use discretion in this matter to cancel the PCN. |
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Fri, 7 Aug 2020 - 08:17
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
State what the exemption is and give the name of the legislation. A link isn't much good.
I would spell out PPE. And high visibility. |
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Fri, 7 Aug 2020 - 10:47
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,982 Joined: 19 Dec 2006 From: Near Calais Member No.: 9,683 |
Thanks, I'll do that, it needs to be sent to them over the weekend to get in within the timescale.
Anyone else got any comments/additions? I thought I saw someone mention a case regarding Camden Council and vehicles stopping at bus stops. This post has been edited by roythebus: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 - 10:48 |
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Fri, 7 Aug 2020 - 10:47
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
State what the exemption is and give the name of the legislation. A link isn't much good. I would spell out PPE. And high visibility. and the way you have explained the brief discussion makes it sound like it occurred after the reason for the stop under the exemption. Never lie but you do not have to incriminate your self by being to honest -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 12:28
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,982 Joined: 19 Dec 2006 From: Near Calais Member No.: 9,683 |
The appeal has been sent and slightly edited. thanks for your help, I'll post the reply when I get one.
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Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 12:37
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 25 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,319 |
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Wed, 19 Aug 2020 - 22:27
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,982 Joined: 19 Dec 2006 From: Near Calais Member No.: 9,683 |
Got home today and found the rejection of appeal letter.
Basically whoever has replied has "noted your comments and I have checked very carefully the CCTV video footage; hoever you have statd that sometimes you use your vehicle for work but in 2 minutes full recording is not proved that you moved out from the vehicle and work on the bus stop/stand". "You have not demonstrated in your appeal that an exemption applies. The other points submitted in mitigation do not justify the cancellation of the PCN". The fact that "you moved out from the vehicle" is interesting. How does this person know that I was the driver? I didn't admit to being the driver. the person in the passenger seat handed out the PPE and other equipment needed for the chap at the bus stop to carry out his duties on the bus stop infrastructure. That person had the equipment required ready to hand, there was no need for that person to leave the car. Seems like another case for the Adjudicator. |
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