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Fairlop Waters Redbridge Council PCN, Ringo ticket bought after 9 minutes
tango008
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 15:56
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Hi
I've just been issued a PCN at Fairlop Waters between 15.42 and 15.46. I had no idea the car park has changed to Ringo only so spent 5 minutes looking for a machine. I went inside to ask at reception. When I found out, I bought a ticket via Ringo at 15.51, 9 mins after ticket start time (5 minutes after ticket end issue time).
The Redbridge council website says no grace period for parking tickets. Is this correct? I've seen gov site reference 10 minutes but is this just for parking bays?
Are car parks now allowed to use Ringo only? What if my phone was dead/at home/ didn't own one?
Thanks.
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post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 15:56
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DancingDad
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 16:11
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Hmmm
Within any council facility, time must be allowed to pay for parking, that is a staple of parking law.
Forget grace period, it is simply down to what is reasonable.

Not that any council will be likely to accept that without argument.

Payment by Ringo only?
If the traffic order allows and signage is present that explains it will be accepted.

Signage, that is the biggie.
With the signs on site, entrance or within the car park, would the reasonably diligent motorist realise that it was a pay parking facilty and that Ringo was required?
Or would it be reasonable for someone to get confused because of lack of signs and ask at reception?

Got any photos and a copy of the PCN please
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tango008
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 10:47
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Hi

Please see attached PCN image. https://i.postimg.cc/m2fkMFFF/PCN.jpg

I don't have any photos of signage. There is none on entry to the car park and a couple of small signs (pointed out to me after the event). One was initially blocked but i have no photos of this. Large car park, extremely busy with parking out of bays everywhere. Many events running at the venue at the same time.

Is this worth fighting? I hear reference to Redbridge council not being too generous with these appeals.

Thanks

This post has been edited by tango008: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 10:50
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stamfordman
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 11:01
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We've had some other cases in this car park. I would certainly challenge this owing to poor signage and your payment made within a reasonable time after due diligence in finding out how to pay. Write a draft and post here first.
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DancingDad
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 11:29
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What Stamford says.
Forget Redbridge being generous or not, we take it as read that all councils will reject, all the time.
Sometimes they surprise us and cancel.
We work on that if someone has a good case and are prepared to risk the full penalty, they will win at adjudication.
IF there is anyway you can get your own photos of signage, this will help your case.
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tango008
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 11:36
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I will return the venue to take some pics of poor signage for this car park and attach. I can't even read the sign in the photo attached as evidence to PCN. It's taken zoomed in so as to appear close but it wasn't close to the car (hence unreadable).

Are there any requirements for Ringo signs? What happens to people with no phone, forgot their phone etc? Seems ridiculous.
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DancingDad
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 11:44
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QUOTE (tango008 @ Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 12:36) *
……..
Are there any requirements for Ringo signs? What happens to people with no phone, forgot their phone etc? Seems ridiculous.


It all comes down to what would be seen as sufficient for a reasonably diligent motorist to be aware of the restriction and how/where to pay.
There is no legislation regarding signs in car parks but this does not mean that a council can ignore the need.

As for no phone, forgotten phone etc.
Simples, exactly the same as no cash, if you park and have no means of payment, leave, there is no discretion or excuse.
Harsh but true.
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tango008
post Mon, 28 Oct 2019 - 07:32
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https://i.postimg.cc/t4fgCwvK/DSC-0010.jpg - where car was parked.
https://i.postimg.cc/xC1pxpnd/DSC-0011.jpg - where car was parked
https://i.postimg.cc/JnXHLM1Y/DSC-0007.jpg entrance to car park. No signage. I did see the notice when I returned to take pics. You can see it further down on the right in the entrance photo. The car park is at the end of this road.

https://i.postimg.cc/m2jwqNpz/DSC-0008.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/J7ccD5L6/DSC-0013.jpg Ringo sign

I am surprised I missed the right hand sign but the car park was full and the right hand lane is used for parking. If you pass a car whilst both sharing this one lane, you would miss the sign.

Thanks in advance



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cp8759
post Mon, 28 Oct 2019 - 11:31
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Show us the back of the PCN.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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tango008
post Mon, 28 Oct 2019 - 13:49
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https://i.postimg.cc/ZKdD34PP/DSC-0039.jpg
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DancingDad
post Mon, 28 Oct 2019 - 14:15
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I'm still hmmmm.
There seems to be no T&C board at the entrance or anything to say Payment required as you enter.
There is a tariff board on the right but not exactly jumping out that it is only PBP, just that PBP is available.
There are Pay by Phone signs within the car park but again, doesn't seem too many.
Does all that translate into not enough...dunno.

At the moment I can only suggest going with what you originally said, spent some time looking for the payment machine, asked at reception, told PBP and did so. Stress you were trying to pay but didn't have a clue how to.
End of the day, likely to come down to an adjudicator deciding whether 9 minutes was reasonable in the circumstance.

Which isn't untenable but not guaranteed either.
I am minded of a TPT case Caroline Shepherd (Chief Adjudicator) in the chair.
A pensioner parked in a P&D car park that had previously been free parking.
Car Park was plastered with P&D signs, Have you Paid and Displayed and the like but he had not seen them and had not paid.
Case was won because there was still a Free Car Park sign 50 yards before the entrance and this could mislead.
I think there was a large sympathy component in the decision but it has parallels.
Not a clue to the number BTW before anyone asks, was on one of the Parking documentaries on the box.
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tango008
post Mon, 28 Oct 2019 - 20:15
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An initial draft....

Should there be more technical references? or anything missing?


I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice issued on 20th October. My vehicle was issued the PCN for contravention 73 which did not occur. I purchased a parking ticket via the Ringo app for two hours parking.

Previously, this car park operated pay and dispaly machines. There is no adequate signage to state these machines are no longer available and that this is a Ringo ONLY operated car park. In fact, upon enterring the car park, there is no signage whatsoever nor any terms and conditions stating that payment is even required to park. The only sign detailing the parking tariffs states that this is a Ringo operated car park. Nowhere does it state that payment can only be made by Ringo. In addition, there are only a few very small Ringo signs, not sufficient given the size of this car park. I've attached pictures to demonstrate the lack of signs given the size of the car park (the PCN evidence photo of the Ringo sign is a close up of the sign, hence the bluriness, not the view of the sign taken from where the car was parked some distance away).

As a result of not being able to locate a pay and display machine, we entered the Bar area (which is a 4 to 5 min walk from the car park) to enquire about payment where we learned that Ringo has replaced all of the pay and display machines. At this point, a payment was made using the Ringo app (once downloaded, details enterred, site located etc) - payment time recorded only 5 minutes after the ticket had been issued.

Given the reasons stated above, it is clear that we were attempting to pay but weren't provided with adequate information. Payment was made within a reasonable time period and as a result, this PCN should be cancelled. I can provide witness statements from the staff if required.

Should this PCN not be cancelled, I will pursue an appeal though the correct channels.
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cp8759
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 10:25
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Remove the last line as it's counter-productive.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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hcandersen
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 10:43
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OP, you are focusing only on payment which is incorrect.

Payment of whatever sum by whatever means is only one element which MUST be contained within at least one PROMINENT sign displaying the Ts and Cs of the car park located within the car park.

Where is it?

And pl, no more small unreadable embedded photos, you must host all your photos externally and link here.

Anyway, back to your case.

Did you leave the car park without paying - you refer to 'reception' but we've no idea where this is located?

If so, are you saying that you saw none of the Ringo signs before you left?

You posted: I had no idea the car park has changed to Ringo only so spent 5 minutes looking for a machine.

Therefore you've used the car park before. So, where was the machine which you expected to be in place and did this not usually have the Ts and Cs displayed? If you went to this machine and it wasn't there, then what's the story here.

IMO, your account leaves an enormous gap i.e. I parked as usual and went to the machine which I usually use NB. surely even if you were not parked near it then on not finding another you would logically have gone to where you knew one was located?

These details could not be finessed at adjudication, so let's examine them now.
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tango008
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 16:19
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 11:43) *
OP, you are focusing only on payment which is incorrect.

Payment of whatever sum by whatever means is only one element which MUST be contained within at least one PROMINENT sign displaying the Ts and Cs of the car park located within the car park.

Where is it?

And pl, no more small unreadable embedded photos, you must host all your photos externally and link here.

Anyway, back to your case.

Did you leave the car park without paying - you refer to 'reception' but we've no idea where this is located?

If so, are you saying that you saw none of the Ringo signs before you left?

You posted: I had no idea the car park has changed to Ringo only so spent 5 minutes looking for a machine.

Therefore you've used the car park before. So, where was the machine which you expected to be in place and did this not usually have the Ts and Cs displayed? If you went to this machine and it wasn't there, then what's the story here.

IMO, your account leaves an enormous gap i.e. I parked as usual and went to the machine which I usually use NB. surely even if you were not parked near it then on not finding another you would logically have gone to where you knew one was located?

These details could not be finessed at adjudication, so let's examine them now.

The T&Cs question - is that to me or something you're saying i should include in my letter?
I haven't embedded any photos - they are all links. Which photos are you referring to?
Yes, i walked through the car park to get to reception. Does that count as leaving the car park?
I don't recall where the P&D machines used to be, only that they were there previously.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 18:01
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The Ts and Cs are the terms and conditions of use of the car park. They would be written on prominent noticeboards, not at head height like the Ringo signs, but at body height. You would expect one noticeboard per P&D machine.

Changing to Ringo only does not relieve the council of its obligation to convey Ts and Cs. These would cover matters such as parking within marked bays, the rules regarding BB holders, not parking in restricted areas, the operational and charging hours, what happens when it closes if your car is caught etc.. AND the parking tariffs and the remedies available to the council for contraventions.

Big sign.

Unmissable if they are there and a motorist looks diligently.
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tango008
post Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 19:03
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Yes I know what t&Cs are. I didn't understand your point/question. As per the photos I attached, none display t&C's.
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tango008
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 10:32
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thanks all for your advice.
hcanderson - I've included your points on T&Cs not being available. Will let you know how it goes.
dancingdad - i'm probably looking for sympathy vote here too
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tango008
post Wed, 18 Mar 2020 - 09:26
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Just to update you all, I FINALLY received a reply from Redbridge and the PCN has been cancelled as a gesture of goodwill.

Thank you for your help and advice.
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