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PCN for parking in a suspended bay or space
Jebus
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:06
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I received a PCN for parking in a suspended bay. I didn't actually know it was suspended as I drove into it from the 'wrong' side of the road. By the look of the images on the TFL website, there is sign on a post next to the car, however I can't tell what it says. From what i've read, it's down to TFL or whoever to make sure that the sign can easily be seen, however it was only displayed on one side and I had no idea it was even there. Do I have a case?
And just to add, the date on the pic is 13/9/19, and the date on the notice is 18/10/19 if that makes any difference.

[attachment=67465:pcn.jpg]

This post has been edited by Jebus: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:10
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post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:06
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hcandersen
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 12:16
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I came in from the *wrong* side and had no clue that it was there. It seems that he's completely glossed over the evidence that I gave.

No he didn't. He stated clearly that he considered all the evidence and he further found as fact:

I make the following findings of fact having considered the evidence:

First, that the bay in question had in fact been lawfully suspended;
Secondly, the terms of the suspension were clear;
Thirdly, that the terms of the suspension were correctly indicated on the suspension signage in place;
Fourthly, that the signage was clear and;
Finally, I find that the vehicle was in fact parked within the bay that was covered by the terms of the suspension.


IMO, you don't stand a chance at review because it is not a matter of law but one of finding of fact which, as all adjudicators on review consistently state, they are very loath to disturb.

And as for: I came in from the *wrong* side and had no clue that it was there.

This just about sums it up. It is your duty to look, not park and waltz off.

And 'can I ask to have the fine reduced to the original 50% off?'

No, as was stated by posters consistently.

For fear of incurring the wrath of the Moderator, you have not taken your duties as a driver nor the advice here with sufficient seriousness such that that some of your comments trivialise the whole process and your role within it.

Although I disagree with several posters, they are busting a gut to help you, but IMO you're not L'Oreal.
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cp8759
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 12:57
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I agree wholeheartedly with hcandersen, as of 31 January this was a winnable case but rather than giving us a chance to write a kick-ass appeal, the OP went off on his own without our help and this was the result. Let it be a lesson to others.


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Jebus
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 15:41
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 12:16) *
I came in from the *wrong* side and had no clue that it was there. It seems that he's completely glossed over the evidence that I gave.

No he didn't. He stated clearly that he considered all the evidence and he further found as fact:

I make the following findings of fact having considered the evidence:

First, that the bay in question had in fact been lawfully suspended;
Secondly, the terms of the suspension were clear;
Thirdly, that the terms of the suspension were correctly indicated on the suspension signage in place;
Fourthly, that the signage was clear and;
Finally, I find that the vehicle was in fact parked within the bay that was covered by the terms of the suspension.


IMO, you don't stand a chance at review because it is not a matter of law but one of finding of fact which, as all adjudicators on review consistently state, they are very loath to disturb.

And as for: I came in from the *wrong* side and had no clue that it was there.

This just about sums it up. It is your duty to look, not park and waltz off.

And 'can I ask to have the fine reduced to the original 50% off?'

No, as was stated by posters consistently.

For fear of incurring the wrath of the Moderator, you have not taken your duties as a driver nor the advice here with sufficient seriousness such that that some of your comments trivialise the whole process and your role within it.

Although I disagree with several posters, they are busting a gut to help you, but IMO you're not L'Oreal.


I didn't look for alternative parking restriction signs because:

a. I park there frequently, and I know what the parking restrictions are. It is unreasonable to assume that the parking restrictions had changed on that day, especially as there was nothing in the vicinity to indicate of any road works etc.

b. The single sign that was pointing in the other direction was clearly not adequate and visible to all.



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 12:57) *
I agree wholeheartedly with hcandersen, as of 31 January this was a winnable case but rather than giving us a chance to write a kick-ass appeal, the OP went off on his own without our help and this was the result. Let it be a lesson to others.


I pretty much did exactly as was recommended, albeit I added in the bit about the visibility of the sign. Has that really caused contention? Can you please clarify where I went wrong?

This post has been edited by Jebus: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 15:42
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spaceman
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 16:44
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The FOI response from the DfT will not help.

The comment within it:

"Ultimate interpretation of the legislation is a matter for courts."

is fatal.

They have then gone on to express what they themselves make clear is their "view". This does not trump an adjudicator's findings of fact.

This post has been edited by spaceman: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 16:49
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 17:26
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The key issue here is not interpretation but facts. DfT has confirmed that a suspension sign has to be in the TSRGDs or approved under the RTRA 1984. They have also indicated that, under the TSM, an enforcement authority should seek their guidance on suspension signs i.e. IMO submitting them for SoS approval like others have done since 2016.

The standard disclaimer about courts and interpretation is standard civil service speak. Several members on this forum use similar riders when offering advice.

I did include something about traffic orders in my FOI request so, like hca forecast, the DfT came back saying in so many words they did not offer legal advice.

If the OP is going to request a Review I suggest he gets on with it given his limited timescale.

Mick
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cp8759
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 20:29
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QUOTE (Jebus @ Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 16:41) *
I pretty much did exactly as was recommended, albeit I added in the bit about the visibility of the sign. Has that really caused contention? Can you please clarify where I went wrong?

I don't know what you mean by contention, but to clarify:

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 19:20 I posted "Well let's wait and see if TFL contests."

Then on 12 February:

QUOTE (Jebus @ Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 20:40) *
More news:

TFL have now issued a charge notice. The price has gone up to £195.

I called London Tribunals who informed me that they have not received my representation. They advised to email them all supporting info. I have since done so and now await a reply.

I asked you if you had proof of postage of your appeal and you never replied. You also never told us that TFL had contested the case, so we never had a chance to ask you for TFL's case summary, nor did we get any chance to help you with the drafting of the appeal (for a case like this, I would have probably just written it for you).

I am very sorry that you lost, but it's down to the fact that between 12 February and the end of March you sought no help from us at all, and this is the sad result. I maintain that this case could have been won if properly argued. It's now too late to adduce new arguments or evidence so while it costs nothing to try, I am very sceptical of a review application being successful.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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