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PCN 87 PARKED IN A DESIGNATED DISABLED PERSON'S PARKING PLACE WITHOUT DISPLAYING
anoti
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 19:22
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Hello,

I received a PCN code 87 on July 31st for being parked in a designated disabled person's parking place without displaying a valid disabled persons badge in the prescribed manner.

I totally misread the signs to mean that it was chargeable from 5pm- 8pm and free for other users at other times and parked for about 30 minutes until 5pm and dutifully returned to make a payment at 5pm. on returning to my car to display the ticket i saw the PCN.

i appealed online on august 13 on these grounds and have received the rejection below.

I have been away and just returned to their rejection of my appeal which is dated 03 oct, which means today is the last day for the reduced amount

Please let me know your thoughts on if there is any merit in this one or whether to just pay the reduced amount

The original PCN is here

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7348/BBqVP9.jpg

And rejection letter is here

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8126/1UtGIq.jpg

Thanks a lot
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post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 19:22
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anoti
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 19:43
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Hello,

I forgot to attach pictures of the signs at the car park please see below

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/4876/OdjJxy.jpg

The car park was Arnsberg way car park bexlyheath
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Neil B
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 19:48
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QUOTE (anoti @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:22) *
I have been away and just returned to their rejection of my appeal which is dated 03 oct, which means today is the last day for the reduced amount

Deadline 20th earliest, 21st if we take their wording literally.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 19:59
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QUOTE (anoti @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:22) *
I totally misread the signs to mean that it was chargeable from 5pm- 8pm and free for other users at other times and parked for about 30 minutes until 5pm and dutifully returned to make a payment at 5pm.

I'd agree with you (but 8am).
They seem to saying the whole car park is disabled only 8am - 5pm?

No BB bays as such -- have I got that right?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:09
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Nowhere does it specifically say the car park is solely for BB holders 8.00 am to 5.00 pm, What it should say is "Blue Badge Holders Only 8.00 am to 5.00 pm, Free all days and times". I think the sign is misleading but i'm not an adjudicator.
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Neil B
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:15
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Is this the place?
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4573075,0.1...6384!8i8192

Different sign? On the reverse of the one you've shown. Facing into the car park and couldn't be clearer imo.

Odd you didn't show it?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:20


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:38
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 21:15) *
Is this the place?
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4573075,0.1...6384!8i8192

Different sign? On the reverse of the one you've shown. Facing into the car park and couldn't be clearer imo.

Odd you didn't show it?


Yeah.
I'm struggling here.
When entering the car park there seems to be nothing to say it is restricted to disabled BB holders, even part time.
The only signs I can see driving in are Pay At Meter.
From that point of view, I would drive in and park.
But I would then go to the machine to pay.
And that sign that Neil pointed to would be right in my face all the way to the machine.

If I about turned, returned to the car and found a CEO writing out a PCN I would happily take this all the way through the process on inadequate signage.
But leaving the car there, sorry, I'd grab the discount.
Only option I can see is if you can show that the sign was not there when you parked and went to the machine?
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hcandersen
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:41
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As clear as mud:

BB holders may park in any bay FOC 24/7, but only some of these are marked as for disabled only;
BB holders may park FOC 24/7 only in bays marked for disabled;
Non-BB holders may park in bays not marked for disabled 24/7, but must pay for periods between 5pm and 8am;
Non-BB holders may only park 5pm to 8am in unmarked bays??

PS. I know what their letter says, but where is this specified on the signs or here?

https://www.bexley.gov.uk/services/parking/...rated-car-parks

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:44
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Neil B
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:48
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 21:38) *
But leaving the car there, sorry, I'd grab the discount.

+1


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 21:21
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@DD, When entering the car park there seems to be nothing to say it is restricted to disabled BB holders, even part time.
The only signs I can see driving in are Pay At Meter.

And the big, bold words: All other users 5pm - 8am.

So no need to pay at the time OP parked(at around 4.30pm) therefore no need to even go near the machine to pay, therefore no presumption as regards seeing the other sign.

OP, are all or some of the parking bays marked in any way and, if so, how?

Was yours?
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DancingDad
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 21:30
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 22:21) *
@DD, When entering the car park there seems to be nothing to say it is restricted to disabled BB holders, even part time.
The only signs I can see driving in are Pay At Meter.

And the big, bold words: All other users 5pm - 8am.…………...


Are we looking at the same entrance HCA ???
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4573495,0.1...6384!8i8192

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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 08:21
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Doesn't really matter if the OP admits he read the sign at the machine.

Whilst I agree with hca that the noticeboard leaves a lot to be desired I cannot see it being strong enough to convince an adjudicator.

I would pay at the discount.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 09:00
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@DD, the photo posted by the OP in post #2.

I still need the OP to answer the questions about the markings i.e. was he parked in a bay marked with disabled or other wording or signs, yes or no? Or is a motorist supposed to presume that the whole car park is reserved for disabled badge holders even when no bays are marked, and if so this MUST mean that paying customers ALWAYS park in bays reserved for disabled blue badge holders and IMO WHY should payment override these markings??

What a mess.

OP, pl answer the key questions: are all/any bays marked and if so so how and can we see photos?

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DancingDad
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 09:45
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 10:00) *
@DD, the photo posted by the OP in post #2.

I still need the OP to answer the questions about the markings i.e. was he parked in a bay marked with disabled or other wording or signs, yes or no? Or is a motorist supposed to presume that the whole car park is reserved for disabled badge holders even when no bays are marked, and if so this MUST mean that paying customers ALWAYS park in bays reserved for disabled blue badge holders and IMO WHY should payment override these markings??

What a mess.

OP, pl answer the key questions: are all/any bays marked and if so so how and can we see photos?


I fully agree with you on the right mess of instructions on the ticket machine board, can see how any driver, myself included would drive into that car park with no idea that it was normally restricted to BB holders.

But cannot see a way of explaining how a reasonably attentive driver would miss that big white sign after parking and approaching the machine or be misled by it.
It is very clear and can be easily read long before the driver would walk around it to check the payment instructions.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 09:46
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baroudeur
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 11:24
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 21:41) *
As clear as mud:

BB holders may park in any bay FOC 24/7, but only some of these are marked as for disabled only;
BB holders may park FOC 24/7 only in bays marked for disabled;
Non-BB holders may park in bays not marked for disabled 24/7, but must pay for periods between 5pm and 8am;
Non-BB holders may only park 5pm to 8am in unmarked bays??

PS. I know what their letter says, but where is this specified on the signs or here?

https://www.bexley.gov.uk/services/parking/...rated-car-parks


Google Street View June 2019 shows all the bays have BB style hatched edge markings but none have any form of BB sign or marking.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 11:40
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To be honest, they're irrelevant.

Was the bay you were in marked with a recognisable (prescribed or defined on the noticeboard) sign or marking?

And all I can see on the 'exit' sign is *** 5pm -8am, ....use appropriate bays.

So WTF is an 'appropriate bay'??



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anoti
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 15:36
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Thanks for all the responses and apologies for the delayed response. From memory none of the bays were marked, hence why I wrongly assumed it was free until 5pm.
I recall seeing a "Have you paid and displayed" sign, walking to the machine and see the 5pm-8pm sign

I will go there this evening and send real pictures of all the signs and non-signs!

Surely there must be standard wording that cant be argued to be open to interpretation which councils ought to use?
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anoti
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 00:49
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Hello,

I've managed to get photos,

Turns out the bays were once marked but have faded so the markings are hardly legible
Please see picture below

This is the bay I parked in

https://imageshack.com/i/pmXeydOPj

Close up picture of the bay

https://imageshack.com/i/plJF2kCFj

Other signs in the car park

https://imageshack.com/i/pnjPyv6Yj

https://imageshack.com/i/pnRIF7xNj

https://imageshack.com/i/podTDiRZj


Thank you.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 09:03
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The bay was not marked.

The sign in the photo can reasonably be interpreted as meaning that marked bays are reserved, not all bays.

The 'P' and wheelchair icon are redundant because they have no place off-street unless specified.

Personally, I would carry on. The markings and signs in combination are not only a mess, they are incomprehensible to a motorist at first glance, and this is the test IMO. It is not whether we, having pored over it for days, or the council, who would only see what they know they want to see, think that given a fair wind and being steeped in parking lore we could rationalise their meaning.

As regards the blue and white sign, if I were a user I doubt whether I would get beyond the P and icon and bold heading of Blue Badge holders - please note that the lower writing is in a much smaller font.

And what the hell is 'an appropriate bay'? It is a non sequitur, it is meaningless because the WHOLE car park is supposed to be reserved to BB holders other than 5pm -8am, so what is an 'appropriate' bay for a P&D?

Answer: all of them 5pm - 8am, therefore the right to park is NOT conferred by type of bay, it's conferred by TIME only.

It is b******s.

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DancingDad
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 10:21
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 10:03) *
………...
As regards the blue and white sign, if I were a user I doubt whether I would get beyond the P and icon and bold heading of Blue Badge holders - please note that the lower writing is in a much smaller font.

………….


24 hours, Mon - Sat seems as bold and clear as the bold heading of Blue Badge Holders ?

Doesn't matter whether or not it is legislated for use off street, it is whether or not it conveys a meaning that is understandable.
And is a common sign that is used on street and its meaning is clear, this space is for BB holders. Only.

That is my issue.
Okay, it may be taken as BB holder can use this car park 24 hours but, they can any 24 hour car park so why put up a sign?
Okay, it would be clearer if it said BB holders Only but the permission for non holders overnight precludes Only.
To me, this is what an adjudicator will be looking at first, before they even get to the weird wording on the actual payment board.

Different opinions, that's fair enough but I would not be risking the discount on this one.
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