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Full amount to pay PCN now, but their post delayed
helping_hand
post Tue, 4 Jun 2019 - 06:46
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I received a PCN on 1st April. I called TFL and requested to post its recorded contravention DVD. They given a ref# and put my ticket on hold for 14 days.

I never received anything, I was away on Easter holidays, forgot this completely. Last weekend I was clearing my draw and found the PCN. I called them straightaway,
they checked their system, 'they posted the cctv dvd but... they apologised and resending another DVD, the ticket is on hold again for 14 days, he said, and given another ref#.


Please correct me here, should the amount not stay same £65 ?
I just checked it online on their website - showing £195

The ticket status history
03 June 2019 On Hold
The PCN has been placed on hold. While it's on hold it will not progress.

03 June 2019 Charge Certificate Batched
N/A

13 April 2019 On Hold
The PCN has been placed on hold. While it's on hold it will not progress.

01 April 2019 On Hold
The PCN has been placed on hold. While it's on hold it will not progress.

28 March 2019 PCN Batched
N/A



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post Tue, 4 Jun 2019 - 06:46
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helping_hand
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 14:54
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 19:52) *
Chase the SARs.


yes I have, indeed sent a letter.
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helping_hand
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 08:05
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FYA, letter received from ET&A to substantiate the witness statement. Please suggest as no update from TfL on SAR yet. Many thanks
Attached File(s)
Attached File  ETandA.pdf ( 141.79K ) Number of downloads: 13
 
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cp8759
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 19:03
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Well at the moment the tribunal is only asking for a copy of your representations, you've given us an extract in post number 18 above so for now, just send a copy of the representations email to the tribunal. I would email it to the tribunal and follow up with a phone call, to confirm that they've received it and added it to the case.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 20:17
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Can we pl go back to the actual provisions under the regs because these are key. It is NOT just a case of the reps because in the absence of the proper context they were made late and could be ignored, as indeed they were.

witness statement must state one and only one of the following—

(b)that he made representations to the enforcement authority under regulation 4 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations but did not receive from that authority a notice of rejection in accordance with regulation 6 of those Regulations;


And prima facie you did not: they were late.

The context is key: the authority undertook to stay the enforcement process while they supplied the DVD. They were late in doing so. You are arguing that reps were submitted in time after the process re-started.

From an earlier post:

2. Confirm your tel call of 3 June in an email and send today. Say that as TfL have agreed to put the matter on hold, you will submit reps which they will see on their online system. Although these would normally be considered as being out of time, you are grateful to TfL for agreeing to put the PCN on hold again - the first time being 1 April at your request, their reference **** refers, the second on the 13th April, apparently initiated internally. Although TfL have promised to supply the DVD, the first one which was requested on 1 April not having been received, you hope they will understand if you submit reps without sight of this because if the second DVD does not arrive the procedural complexities for both you and TfL multiply.

Wait for the views of others.
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cp8759
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:01
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The reps give context:

Although these would normally be considered as being out of time. I am grateful that you agree to put the PCN on hold again - the first-time being the April 1st. The second on the 13th April, spoke to <Msxxx>, apparently initiated internally.

More is better, but there's enough there.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:03
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My worry is that the adj might not get past the date on the reps.

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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:12
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 13:03) *
My worry is that the adj might not get past the date on the reps.


I agree, the OP whilst submitting their reps to the tribunal must submit an explanatory letter as to why they should not have been considered out of time


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helping_hand
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 08:00
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Correct. I was not told of such procedure am afraid.
TfL told over the phone nothing about the date when the PCN hold time re-starts. Plus they should have sent cctv film dvd in a recorded delivery at their 1st or 2nd attempt, like they did it at the end.
Funny receiving further two more copies of the recording DVDs (signed delivery) afterwards.


I heard from friend of mine, who had a PCN came through post same council. He was given a date to when the PCN hold time stops. Probably now they have trained staff or the one I spoke to forgotten completely on posting cctv recording.


So what additional line I should add along with Reps, please?

This post has been edited by helping_hand: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 08:01
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hcandersen
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 08:15
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The adjudicator will see from the date of my representations (****) that in normal circumstances these were made after the expiry of the 28-day period. However, the circumstances of this case were not normal.

TfL's evidence shows that they stayed the enforcement process at intervals pending them delivering a copy of the DVD and this had the effect of extending with their agreement the expiry date of the 28-day period.

My representations were therefore not delivered 'late' and whoever 'disregarded' them was clearly not aware of the contextual circumstances and TfL's undertakings in this matter.

Would be my take.
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helping_hand
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 09:10
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 09:15) *
The adjudicator will see from the date of my representations (****) that in normal circumstances these were made after the expiry of the 28-day period. However, the circumstances of this case were not normal.

TfL's evidence shows that they stayed the enforcement process at intervals pending them delivering a copy of the DVD and this had the effect of extending with their agreement the expiry date of the 28-day period.

My representations were therefore not delivered 'late' and whoever 'disregarded' them was clearly not aware of the contextual circumstances and TfL's undertakings in this matter.



I add these lines along with the reps point#18, email and afterwards phone them to make sure they have received it.
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helping_hand
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 19:00
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fyi, email sent to adj, they uploaded it on the case, its all they needed for now, they told.

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helping_hand
post Tue, 5 Nov 2019 - 15:16
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reply received icon_hang.gif
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Adj_reply.pdf ( 126.09K ) Number of downloads: 24
 
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cp8759
post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 16:35
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Submit a request for review:

-----------

The adjudicator appears to have overlooked the fact that the enforcement authority is entitled to extend the 28 day period, and where the enforcement authority makes a commitment to extend the 28 day representation period, it cannot then resile from that commitment. In this case, the representations were outside the original 28 day period but they were within the period as extended by the enforcement authority itself.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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lashes1984
post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 18:57
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Can you upload your ticket history please. Not wanting to give you false hope but I’ve had some luck with TfL PCNs recently, namely on procedural grounds despite clear contravention.
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cp8759
post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 19:21
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QUOTE (lashes1984 @ Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 18:57) *
Can you upload your ticket history please. Not wanting to give you false hope but I’ve had some luck with TfL PCNs recently, namely on procedural grounds despite clear contravention.

None of that is relevant unless the tribunal accepts that representations were made in time.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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helping_hand
post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 19:36
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QUOTE (lashes1984 @ Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 19:57) *
Can you upload your ticket history please. Not wanting to give you false hope but I’ve had some luck with TfL PCNs recently, namely on procedural grounds despite clear contravention.



Attached

Also, I just got SAR reply; strangely saying to contact Red Routes. But I wrote to them twice at the same address. I have postage records, letter were sent on 30/6 & 10/10

This post has been edited by helping_hand: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 19:42
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Longtime Lurker
post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 19:58
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 17:35) *
Submit a request for review:

-----------

The adjudicator appears to have overlooked the fact that the enforcement authority is entitled to extend the 28 day period, and where the enforcement authority makes a commitment to extend the 28 day representation period, it cannot then resile from that commitment. In this case, the representations were outside the original 28 day period but they were within the period as extended by the enforcement authority itself.


Do you think it would be worth adding a 'belt and braces' follow on? I'm thinking along the lines of:

If the reviewer is minded to reject this appeal because they believe the 28 day was not or indeed cannot be extended, I also ask for a review on the grounds that justice requires it: it is manifestly unfair that an authority can win cases by tricking appellants into believing they have extended the 28 day period when they are unable do to so.
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cp8759
post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 22:47
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QUOTE (Longtime Lurker @ Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 19:58) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 17:35) *
Submit a request for review:

-----------

The adjudicator appears to have overlooked the fact that the enforcement authority is entitled to extend the 28 day period, and where the enforcement authority makes a commitment to extend the 28 day representation period, it cannot then resile from that commitment. In this case, the representations were outside the original 28 day period but they were within the period as extended by the enforcement authority itself.


Do you think it would be worth adding a 'belt and braces' follow on? I'm thinking along the lines of:

If the reviewer is minded to reject this appeal because they believe the 28 day was not or indeed cannot be extended, I also ask for a review on the grounds that justice requires it: it is manifestly unfair that an authority can win cases by tricking appellants into believing they have extended the 28 day period when they are unable do to so.

No I'd rather keep it simple and to the point.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Longtime Lurker
post Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 23:54
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 23:47) *
No I'd rather keep it simple and to the point.


Helping_hand, in that case you should follow cp8759's advice not mine, I'm nowhere near the expert that cp8759 is!
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lashes1984
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 07:42
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@helping_hand the Ticket History I was referring to was the one TfL sent in the post with the appeal pack. I believe you said it was 6 pages.

@cp8759 whilst I appreciate it may not be relevant unless reps are accepted as having been made on time, I felt it was important to cross reference with TfL’s case summary as they refer to it several times.

Correct me if I’m wrong, there seems to be an assumption made based on the OP’s narrative that TfL sending out a copy of the DVD the 2nd time was initiated internally. However, TfL state in their case summary that it was sent on 13/04/2019 at the OP’s request and that there was no further communication from the OP until a CC was issued.

@helping_hand did you contact TfL on 13/04/2019?

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