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PCN - Council CP, No charges for parking, ticket for being over two spaces, No P&D on weekends, no parking for long vehicles, no restrictions.
PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:04
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Hi all,

I am hoping someone will be able to advise on the current situation I have.


Last weekend I took our sports team in a mini bus to a sports centre, used their car park which is owned by the council. There are no parking charges at the weekend however they had a warden on that Sunday it seems!

Upon entering the car park we of course looked for coach/mini bus parking but there was nothing provided for such vehicles - only standard spaces. Instead of parking in a standard space and sticking out (the van is 7m) or blocking any access points/pathways, we parked in spaces parallel to the kerb and not reverse/drive in style spaces (if that makes sense). We parked in front of another mini bus too.

When returning to the van there was a parking ticket stating we had been fined for parking over two bays.
There was also a ticket on the other mini bus which I presume was for the same thing as it was parked in the same manner.

I appealed this stating that the vehicle was well parked, in a space that was not obstructing any other vehicles or access points. The car park wasn't full and therefore it wasn't an issue for space availability. There were no charges on a weekend and if there had have been charges we'd have paid for two spaces as we were aware it was over two bays. Also that I had no alternative as there were no designated spaces for longer vehicles which I found strange as teams must travel frequently to the venue...

The response I've had in short is as follows:
You were given a Penalty Charge Notice because part of your vehicle was outside the white lines of the parking bay. You are not allowed to park like this even if you have paid to park, are displaying an item correctly (for example a permit, Pay & Display ticket or disabled badge) or other cars have not left you enough room. Although one incorrectly parked car can make the next space too small for anyone else to use, we enforce the rule across both spaces. We do this to stop a knock-on effect of further cars parking incorrectly, reducing the available parking space even more.

Although there are no Pay & Display charges on a Sunday, all other parking restrictions within the car park still remain enforceable.

The fact that other cars may not have been given Penalty Charge Notices does not affect your Penalty Charge Notice, which was given correctly.


I think it goes without saying that I'm not willing to pay this fine but would like some help as to what to do next. I have photographic evidence, pretty much exactly the same as the council put in the online portal, but I will refrain from posting for now as I'm not sure what benefit it will bring to this post yet.

Any help much appreciated,

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post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:04
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stamfordman
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:08
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Post PCN, pics and terms of car park.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:25
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OP, cutting to the chase and putting aside all 'the council are nasty' thoughts ...

I'm not willing to pay this fine

...is not going to get you anywhere, other than potentially to the point where an enforcement agent is at your door. How you think a car park should operate, the rules it should impose and whether in a free car park there should be rules at all cuts no ice. This is a legal process based on factual evidence.

So..
stamfordman has referred to the docs so far, the terms and conditions of use of the car park as displayed on the noticeboard at the site, your challenge and their response.

My request is..who owns the vehicle?

The next notice in the process which is set out clearly here (https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process) is that the registered keeper would receive a Notice to Owner. This has nothing to do with who was driving, the owner of the vehicle is liable.

If this is not you then, ironically, as regards parking regs you won't have to pay this fine!
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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:37
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Hi both

@hcanderson Apologies - that line was not supposed to be so 'cut throat' just more than I don't believe I should have to pay it - I'm a pretty reasonable person! My husband owns the vehicle.

Pics of PCN and terms
https://ibb.co/hYGnT12
https://ibb.co/zhcYWh3
https://ibb.co/5GnD0TM
https://ibb.co/V2w1Zzf

Thanks again for help!

This post has been edited by PCNPK: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:38
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cp8759
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:58
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Show us the back of the PCN


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 12:03
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I don't have it to hand right now unfortunately to take a photo.
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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 12:18
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I will post it as soon as I can.

Can I ask in the meantime

"all other parking restrictions within the car park still remain enforceable"

Where should I have expected to find these restrictions? There was nothing on the signage showing restrictions of any kind I don't believe
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stamfordman
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 12:20
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What is council and where is this.

Board only says non-compliance with regs but doesn't say what regs are.

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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 12:23
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Perth & Kinross, Perth itself.
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 12:46
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I'll have a look for the Order.

Sometimes Councils allow long vehicles to park provided they buy a ticket for two bays. Doesn't apply in this case if the CP was free that day but they might be held to account if that sort of clause is in the Order.

Mick
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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 12:52
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Thanks Mick, that would be interesting to know.

Not sure if this is relevant or not but I have just found out a statement on a leaflet uploaded to their website that has the car park listed and says "These car parks are not owned by the Council and set their own hours of operation and charges."
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 12:59
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https://tro.appealparkingorbuslanefine.gov....2015-signed.PDF

Have a look at 18(2) I haven't read it all.

Mick.
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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 13:08
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Thanks Mick, I'm not the best at reading legislation but from my understanding, it sounds as if I was compliant with that...

*edited to upload screenshot*

This post has been edited by PCNPK: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 13:10
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cp8759
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 13:10
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+1, but please show us the back of the PCN.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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hcandersen
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 13:13
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OP, thank you.

Are you a 'large passenger vehicle' - see s2(i) of the order.
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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 13:17
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No worries! It is not a 'large passenger vehicle'
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hcandersen
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 13:39
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Shame, that is a defence.

Other than this, I don't see that you have a defence as regards the order: you had to park wholly within markings.

We're now left with whether these terms were conveyed clearly at the carpark.

IMO, a driver must be in a position to make an informed decision whether to park and 'read the regs' does not cut it for me.

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stamfordman
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 14:01
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Bit of a catch-22 if you can't fit in a bay but you ain't heavy. What to do?
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PCNPK
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 14:40
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I've posted some links to pictures above which show the signage, these pictures are almost identical to what the warden had supplied in the online portal too. I'm struggling to comprehend where I should have read these regulations if they were not on the signage nor next to the payment machine.

The 18 (2) says something about being within the limits of two spaces?

We are actually classed as a caravan by the vehicle types listed in that document - the vehicle carries 6 people as a motorhome.
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peterguk
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 14:45
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QUOTE (PCNPK @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 14:40) *
We are actually classed as a caravan by the vehicle types listed in that document - the vehicle carries 6 people as a motorhome.

What vehicle is it?


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