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Accidentally went through a road I shouldn't have, do I pay up?
eelgrosso
post Fri, 4 Oct 2019 - 19:30
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Hi all,

Long story short, I just got a letter in the post that I had driven down a road I wasn't supposed to. One of the 'except buses and for access' ones. Very unfortunate.

I looked over my dashcam and yes, I drove down the wrong road (also proven by their video). However, I actually recall the situation. Basically, I was in an unfamiliar area and I remember being extremely confused at which way I was supposed to go. Exhibit A:

https://i.imgur.com/SODK2p9.png

Maybe it was just the glare or sun that day (or maybe just my dashcam), but you can just about see 2 circular signs; one in the middle (between the roads) and one on the right side (to the right of the right road). Of course, there is also TURN LEFT and AHEAD ONLY on the floor; maybe I am just dumb, but this still wasn't clear which way I was supposed to go. Moving closer:

https://i.imgur.com/CWpFAGj.png

Yes, the left sign is clear as day when I eventually saw it and I thought it was referring to the left road, but the right one (especially the circular sign) was more facing the wall making it hard to see. Ironically, I actually started in the left/correct lane, but because of my confusion I ended up going for the right lane.

They want £65. Happy to pay it if I am genuinely guilty, but was just wondering if it was worth appealing. My understanding is that if I do appeal and I lose the appeal, I still pay the £65, so I figured what I have got to lose. I am going to be honest and say that the road markings/signs were very unclear and that is why I went to the right lane. Otherwise, does anyone have any advice to approach the issue? Should I also provide the images/dashcam footage? Will that help my case? I think at the time, it was hard to see the right one, and as I assumed the left one was for the left lane, I changed lanes like a dummy.

If you need the video, I'll post it. Hopefully I am not being too stupid here. Just thought I'd ask to get some outsider opinions. Thanks!
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post Fri, 4 Oct 2019 - 19:30
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Jlc
post Fri, 4 Oct 2019 - 19:32
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I presume this is a council charge?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 - 19:32


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 4 Oct 2019 - 20:03
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Post the PCN and council video.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

Put videos on Youtube, Imgur or such like.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 - 20:08
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eelgrosso
post Fri, 4 Oct 2019 - 22:50
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Yes, from London borough of Redbridge council.
52m - failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (motor vehicles)

I couldn't figure out how to download the council video, but it's just a recording of me in the restricted road. My dash cam video might be better: http://imgur.com/a/2nIWzMZ

Clements Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9YzHTyKdFKNrfC3WA

As you can see, I was in the correct lane and out of confusion, I went for the right lane. Watching it back, it looks restricted, but at the time (ignoring the ground signs alone as they're confusing enough), I think I saw only the left sign and assumed it was for the left road. It's in between the roads, so could go either way. Though you can see a sign on the right of the road too, it is slightly harder to see as it's facing the wall a bit.


If this isn't worth fighting, I'll just pay up tomorrow. Regardless, any advice welcome, thanks.

This post has been edited by eelgrosso: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 - 22:56
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stamfordman
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 09:36
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It does look poorly signed - signs are set back and no indication that the right lane is heading for a restriction.

Well there is a diagonal line but no sign as to what it is trying to do.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5574478,0.0...6384!8i8192


Let's see the PCN. Post the council pics at least. I can post video if you PM me details.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 09:47
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eelgrosso
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 10:07
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 10:36) *
It does look poorly signed - signs are set back and no indication that the right lane is heading for a restriction.

Well there is a diagonal line but no sign as to what it is trying to do.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5574478,0.0...6384!8i8192


Let's see the PCN. Post the council pics at least. I can post video if you PM me details.


Thank you for the help so far.

There are 2 pictures. One is just a close up of my car, probably to get the license plate. This is the other one: https://imgur.com/a/YaV3fm1

Here is the recording from their side, which pretty much aligns with the dashcam footage I posted above; just from the front instead: https://imgur.com/a/HJL5fB6

Again thank you.
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cp8759
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 14:33
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Post up all sides of the PCN - there's a known flaw in the small print of Redbridge moving traffic PCNs. Just redact your name, address and number plate and leave everything else visible, include all sides of all pages.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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eelgrosso
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 09:57
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 15:33) *
Post up all sides of the PCN - there's a known flaw in the small print of Redbridge moving traffic PCNs. Just redact your name, address and number plate and leave everything else visible, include all sides of all pages.


Here it is:

https://imgur.com/a/HTCxRgU
https://imgur.com/a/FVjkvTH
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eelgrosso
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 19:37
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I guess I'm paying up tomorrow. thank you all for the help anyway.

This post has been edited by eelgrosso: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 19:38
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cp8759
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 01:04
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The PCN is flawed, it gives two different deadlines when the penalty can be increased by the council and both deadlines are wrong and not in line with the legislation. This should get the PCN cancelled but if you want to rush into paying we can't help you.

Just consider that if you pay, all rights of appeal are lost.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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eelgrosso
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 11:10
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 02:04) *
The PCN is flawed, it gives two different deadlines when the penalty can be increased by the council and both deadlines are wrong and not in line with the legislation. This should get the PCN cancelled but if you want to rush into paying we can't help you.

Just consider that if you pay, all rights of appeal are lost.


Ah my apologies. I was just getting conscious of the 14 days I have to pay the discounted price which ends in a few days.

Could you elaborate on the deadlines issue? How would I present this to the council as part of my appeal? Would this be my only argument or would I bring up the lack of visibility issues also?

Thanks again.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 12:04
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PM me the details and I'll post council video. The fact you have dash cam shows your view which is different from the council overhead camera and could be useful.
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eelgrosso
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 14:23
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 13:04) *
PM me the details and I'll post council video. The fact you have dash cam shows your view which is different from the council overhead camera and could be useful.


I realise that the resources I have provided so far are scattered around different replies, so I will consolidate them all here:

Council video: https://m.imgur.com/a/HJL5fB6
My dashcam: http://imgur.com/a/2nIWzMZ
Google maps location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5574478,0.0...6384!8i8192
PCN: https://imgur.com/a/HTCxRgU | https://imgur.com/a/FVjkvTH
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 13:29
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The relevant legislation is here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/...graph/5/enacted and it says:

(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days beginning—

(a) where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served;


The date the PCN is served is two working days after the date of the PCN, as the PCN is dated 26 September the date of service is 30 September (weekends don't count) meaning that the 28 day period expires on 27 October.

However on the front of the PCN the only 28 day period referenced is "the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice"; using the 26 September as the starting date the 28 day period expires on 23 October, so they're cutting the period short by 4 days.

On the back of the PCN it says, in the Data Protection Statement, that a charge certificate will be sent after the period of 21 days after the date of service, i.e. the relevant period expires on 20 October 2019, on this interpretation the council is cutting the period short by a whole week.

So basically the law says that you have up to 27 October to pay the £130 charge, but the PCN says, depending on which side you're reading, that you have until 23 October or 20 October. The council is giving you two contradictory deadlines and they're both wrong.

These sorts of issues with the dates can win on their own, see for example Robert Atlas v London Borough of Barnet (2170053479, 24 April 2017) http://bit.ly/2KCRlnX though I think your case is more clear-cut.

I don't think your argument on the signage is that good, after all if they had been no entry signs, would you have driven past them?

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 13:31


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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eelgrosso
post Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 17:29
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 14:29) *
The relevant legislation is here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/...graph/5/enacted and it says:

(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days beginning—

(a) where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served;


The date the PCN is served is two working days after the date of the PCN, as the PCN is dated 26 September the date of service is 30 September (weekends don't count) meaning that the 28 day period expires on 27 October.

However on the front of the PCN the only 28 day period referenced is "the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice"; using the 26 September as the starting date the 28 day period expires on 23 October, so they're cutting the period short by 4 days.

On the back of the PCN it says, in the Data Protection Statement, that a charge certificate will be sent after the period of 21 days after the date of service, i.e. the relevant period expires on 20 October 2019, on this interpretation the council is cutting the period short by a whole week.

So basically the law says that you have up to 27 October to pay the £130 charge, but the PCN says, depending on which side you're reading, that you have until 23 October or 20 October. The council is giving you two contradictory deadlines and they're both wrong.

These sorts of issues with the dates can win on their own, see for example Robert Atlas v London Borough of Barnet (2170053479, 24 April 2017) http://bit.ly/2KCRlnX though I think your case is more clear-cut.

I don't think your argument on the signage is that good, after all if they had been no entry signs, would you have driven past them?


Thank you so much. I agree, maybe the signage argument is a little weak. I'll write up an appeal using your information around the dates and send it in tonight. Any tips regarding my approach appreciated. For example, do I request that the pcn is made null because they messed up on the dates? What are my grounds? Thanks again!
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 18:21
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Don't send anything without showing us a draft first. Your ground is that the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, this is because if the PCN does not convey the information required by the legislation, the only penalty that may be demanded is nil.

If you can wait a couple of days I can draft a representation for you, that would improve your chances significantly.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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eelgrosso
post Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 21:09
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 8 Oct 2019 - 19:21) *
Don't send anything without showing us a draft first. Your ground is that the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, this is because if the PCN does not convey the information required by the legislation, the only penalty that may be demanded is nil.

If you can wait a couple of days I can draft a representation for you, that would improve your chances significantly.


Really appreciate all the help and support here. Did not realise at all that an incorrectly stated PCN could result in it being made void. As I'm still worried they may reject it and Thursday (2 days from now) will be 2 weeks since issue (including weekends), I would like to appeal this by latest tomorrow, so I've had a go at drafting up a response that strongly references your points. I took your advice to not lessen the response by mentioning the signage, and hopefully using your words, have been explicitly direct regarding the issues with the PCN. Let me know if you see anything that needs improving and thanks again (if this website supports donations or anything similar, definitely happy to oblige).

--------------------------------

To whomever this may concern,

Hope all is well. I am getting in touch regarding PCN XXX and I am appealing the original requested penalty charge. After much deliberation, I wanted to share various discrepancies that I was hoping you would be able to consider upon recieving and reviewing the content in this message.

Please understand that the penalty charge demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case because the actual PCN sent does not correctly convey the information required by the following legislation:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/...graph/5/enacted

(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days beginning—

(a) where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served;

Thus, the only penalty that may be demanded is nil.

To elaborate, the date that the PCN was served on is two days after the date of the PCN; the PCN is dated 26th September whereas the date of service is the 30th September (not including weekends). This means that the 28 day period of demanded penalty payment actually expires on the 27th October. However, please understand that in the provided PCN, the only 28 day period referenced is "the period of 28th days beginning with the date of this notice"; using the 26th September as the starting date (as mentioned above), the 28 day period expires on 23rd October. This means that the allowed period has incorrectly been dated and referenced as 4 days less than what is actually available.

To detail further, the PCN mentions that, as part of the Data Protection Statement, a charge certificate will be sent after the period of 21 days after the date of service. With this in mind, the relevant period would expire on 20th October. Thus, a whole week is not being considered as part of the allowed period mentioned in the PCN.

In summary and by law, I should have until the 27th October to pay the demanded penalty. However, the PCN incorrectly states that I have until the 23rd October or 20th October, depending on what part of the PCN is being read. Not only are the mentioned dates contradictory, but by law, they are wrong.

I strongly request that you consider the above information as part of this appeal and I look forward to hearing back from you soon.

Kind regards,

X
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cp8759
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 11:41
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Here's a draft representation, the council will not accept this but it puts you in a good position to take the case to the tribunal. Keep all italics formatting as I have used it below:

---------------------

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

I hereby challenge liability against Penalty Charge Notice XXX on the basis that the amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. Section 4(8) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 specifies, insofar as is relevant, that:

"A penalty charge notice under this section must—
(a) state—
...
(v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;
"

The 28 day period is defined at paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 as follows:

"Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent.

(2) The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days beginning—

(a) where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served;
"

The 28 day period is therefore the period beginning with the date of service of the PCN, and this is what should be conveyed by the PCN. Given the PCN was issued on 26 September 2019 and served on 30 September 2019, this means the 28 day period is due to expire on 27 October 2019.

The front page of the PCN states the following:

"The Penalty Charge of £130.00 is now payable and must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice.
...
If the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period an increased charge of £195.00 may be payable. We may then send you a Charge Certificate seeking payment of the increased amount.
"

There is no reference to any other 28 day period on the PCN, the front of the PCN therefore conveys that a charge certificate may be issued if payment is not made before the end of the 28 day period beginning with date of the notice. This means that the recipient of the PCN could be mislead to believe that a Charge Certificate may be issued after the end of the 28 day period commencing with 26 September 2019 and ending on 23 October 2019, i.e. the council purports to be empowered to issue a Charge Certificate some four days earlier than the legislation allows.

The rear of the PCN conveys some different information, specifically that:

"The London Borough of Redbridge uses your personal data (vehicle registration) to send you a Charge Certificate and associated notices if the penalty charge remains unpaid after the last day of the period of 21 days beginning on the date on which this notice was served"

As the PCN was served on 30 September 2019, the 21 day period mentioned would expire on 20 October 2019, a full 7 days earlier than the 28 day period prescribed by law.

In summary, the PCN conveys two contradictory periods after which the council may serve a charge certificate, both periods are wrong, and both periods cut short the amount of time the recipient has to pay the penalty at the £130 rate. The PCN cannot therefore be said to substantially comply with the legislation.

The council's attention is drawn to the decision in Robert Atlas v London Borough of Barnet (2170053479, 24 April 2017) where on review the tribunal held as follows:

"Mr Atlas submits that this wording is not compliant with the requirements of the 2003 Act and, further, effectively limits the time
he has to make representations.

I accept this submission. The wording does not comply with the requirements of the Act and therefore effectively limits the time
a recipient has to make representations or, indeed, to pay the full penalty charge before a Charge Certificate is issued.
...
Accordingly, I accept the application for review and the appeal must be allowed.
"

Exactly the same circumstances apply here: the wording of Redbridge's PCN does not comply with the requirements of the act and effectively limits the time the recipient has to pay the full penalty before a Charge Certificate is issued. Where the PCN does not comply with the requirements of the Act, the only penalty that may demanded in nil. It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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eelgrosso
post Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 14:25
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Thank you so much. Will submit this tonight and update this thread once I hear back from them. Appreciate the help.
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eelgrosso
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 17:49
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Thank you for the patience and prior help. They finally got back to me and it looks like they rejected the appeal. See below:

https://imgur.com/a/xalxaTp
https://imgur.com/a/zHIaP7o

They did not acknowledge the defense representation at all. What do we think the next step should be?

Thanks again.
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