PCN issued by council - contravention 16 Options

[Parker1994]

Hi All
I recently received a PCN from Haringey Council for a Car Club car on Montague Road N15 where my car had to be towed and i was charged £265 for Contravention 16 - Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly. The car in question has a valid residence permit for the area.

I had parked on Montague Road N15 at around 2 am at night (i have proof of night time parking via receipts from car club- Drive Now)- it was pitch dark (there are street lamps only in intersections of this road and they are extremely dim) and I couldn’t see any signs around, the only sign i could see is a resident permit holders only on the opposite street. I later realised from my PCN that the bay was a business permit holders only bay and the sign was upto 4-5 car lengths away under a tree. The sign pole was black and the face was turned in the opposite direction when viewed from where I had parked (can be verified in google maps) which would almost be impossible to see in the dark.

What annoys me is that the area is a residential area and the bay where i parked my car is the only bay which is a business permit holders only bay. All the resident permit holders only signs are placed in the beginning and end of bays however i felt that this particular bay, perhaps sneakily and on purpose had been obscured and purposely not placed in the beginning and end of bays like all the other signs in the road and area.

I have attached pics that the CEO took and some google images of the area. Could you please advice if its worth an appeal and worth taking it to the adjudicator in case the appeal fails?

Many thanks!!!

This post has been edited by Parker1994: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 08:32

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

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[stamfordman]

What's your standing in this - the car belongs to the car club presumably.

Must say that relying on a bay sign in another bay is a common mistake we see and I can't see anything to go on here other than it costs nothing to appeal. There may be in the documents and PCN if you post them.

[Parker1994]

What's your standing in this - the car belongs to the car club presumably.

Must say that relying on a bay sign in another bay is a common mistake we see and I can't see anything to go on here other than it costs nothing to appeal. There may be in the documents and PCN if you post them.

Hi Stamfordman

I have attached the PCN here and yes the car belongs to the car club. I cannot believe my luck out of all the places i could have parked in which had empty spaces, i parked in this particular bay. I have posted a google map image showing all the resident permit holders bay in black and the business permit holders only bay in red. Cannot believe my luck! seems like the car was towed immediately after issue of the pcn, the tow truck can be seen in the CEO supplied pictures.

This post has been edited by Parker1994: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 08:42

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[cp8759]

So here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5878176,-...6384!8i8192

The issue of standing etc... is somewhat irrelevant, if you paid to get the car out of the pound you're entitled to make representations and ultimately appeal to the tribunal, regardless of who the DVLA show as being the RK.

Did the CEO really only take 3 pictures? If there's more, show us.

Also show us the towing documents in full, I think there might be a way to contest at least the towing fees. The car was observed up to 8:38, so assuming the PCN was served at 8:38, the earliest time the car could be lawfully towed would be 9:09. From what little of the towing document I can see, I think it was towed at 8:41 which is way too soon.

[Parker1994]

So here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5878176,-...6384!8i8192

The issue of standing etc... is somewhat irrelevant, if you paid to get the car out of the pound you're entitled to make representations and ultimately appeal to the tribunal, regardless of who the DVLA show as being the RK.

Did the CEO really only take 3 pictures? If there's more, show us.

Also show us the towing documents in full, I think there might be a way to contest at least the towing fees. The car was observed up to 8:38, so assuming the PCN was served at 8:38, the earliest time the car could be lawfully towed would be 9:09. From what little of the towing document I can see, I think it was towed at 8:41 which is way too soon.

Hi cp8759

Apologies for the late reply. I cant seem to upload more pictures here due to file size limits but yes you are right the car was towed immediately after issue of pcn at 8.39am based off pictures. The car was towed at 8.41am. I wanted to ask if i could also contest against poor signage? I have uploaded a picture which shows the two signs. As i parked the car at night- there is minimal street lighting in the area which would make it difficult to read these signs. Could you please advise if it would be appropriate to contest signage issues based on the uploaded picture?

There is also an inconsistency in the way the sign is placed. In all bays in the area- the sign has been placed in the beginning and end of bays whereas the business permit holders sign was placed 4-5 car lengths away from mine, was under a tree and was turned the opposite way when viewed from where i parked.

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

[stamfordman]

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

How do you know for sure the tow was at 8.41?

This would seem be against Haringey policy, which is to give 30 mins in a parking place where a charge or ticket wasn't paid or displayed. But it doesn't say permit. They won't though tow for an expired residents permit until 7 days. I suspect they'll say a business bay qualifies for immediate removal.

[Parker1994]

Thanks for that! Here are all the ceo supplied images

https://ibb.co/thCDFRL
https://ibb.co/ZzCcqt2
https://ibb.co/vD3G1g9
https://ibb.co/D7RX4Ch
https://ibb.co/9qfjXGk
https://ibb.co/fFcNnnr
https://ibb.co/NWTyDQQ
https://ibb.co/ZLDyLgY
https://ibb.co/Xxby5MC

[PASTMYBEST]

Correct me if I am wrong but are the council not obliged to wait 30 minutes before removal when the car is in a parking place? If so the photos certainly indicate this did not happen

[Parker1994]

Correct me if I am wrong but are the council not obliged to wait 30 minutes before removal when the car is in a parking place? If so the photos certainly indicate this did not happen

I think so too, I’ve checked the relevant legislation and all other council’s guidance on removals (as Haringey’s wasn’t too clear) and they all have written that they need to wait 30 minutes before removal for contravention code 16 (even when parked in a Doctor designated bay). Time is money for the private removal agencies I guess, they could tow 2-3 cars in 30 minutes and make 600 pounds as opposed to just 200 pounds for a single car. The business bay was completely empty as well, i didnt understand the urgency shown by the CEO to remove the car.

[cp8759]

This would seem be against Haringey policy, which is to give 30 mins in a parking place where a charge or ticket wasn't paid or displayed. But it doesn't say permit. They won't though tow for an expired residents permit until 7 days. I suspect they'll say a business bay qualifies for immediate removal.

They can put whatever they want in their policy, but the law is clear and the removal is unlawful. Here's what I would suggest by way of reps. There's no point in going overboard about the sign, because frankly nothing you say is a defence in law, the truth of the matter is you should have looked much harder for the sign. Still, you can still ask for discretion, it can't hurt.

------------------

Dear London Borough of Haringey

Firstly, I make representations against the removal of the vehicle, which was premature. The PCN was issued at 8:38 and the vehicle was removed at 8:41, however regulation 5C(3) of The Removal and Disposal of Vehicles Regulations 1986 provides that:

(3) The power conferred by paragraph (2) is not exercisable where the vehicle concerned is in a parking place and a penalty charge notice has been served as mentioned in paragraph (1)(b) in respect of a contravention consisting of, or arising out of, a failure—

(a) to pay a parking charge with respect to the vehicle;
(b) properly to display a ticket or parking device; or
(с) to remove the vehicle from the parking place by the end of the period for which the appropriate charge was paid,
until the appropriate period has elapsed since the giving of that penalty charge notice in respect of the contravention.

(4) In this regulation—

“the appropriate period” means—
(a) in the case of a vehicle as respects which there are 3 or more penalty charges outstanding, 15 minutes;
(b) in any other case 30 minutes;

The PCN in this instance was issued for contravention code 16 - Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required which is clearly arising out of a failure to properly to display a ticket or parking device. It follows that the council had no power to remove until 30 minutes after service of the PCN, it follows that the removal was unlawful and the towing fees must be refunded.

Furthermore, I ask the council to exercise discretion to cancel the PCN on the basis of the following mitigation.

I had parked at around 2 am (see the enclosed proof of night time parking via receipts from car club- Drive Now) it was pitch dark (there are street lamps only in intersections of this road and they are extremely dim) and I couldn’t see any signs around, the only sign i could see is a resident permit holders only sign on the opposite side of the street. While I appreciate each bay will have its own sign indicating the applicable restrictions, and signs in another bay could not be relied on, the business permit holders sign was 4-5 car lengths away under a tree. The sign pole was black and the sign was facing away from me and would not have been readily visible. Unfortunately the result is that the sign was almost be impossible to see in the dark. While I appreciate this is not a defence in law, as the sign cannot be described as inadequate, the council is nonetheless invited to consider the above mitigation and further to consider excercising discretion to cancel the penalty charge.

[PASTMYBEST]

This would seem be against Haringey policy, which is to give 30 mins in a parking place where a charge or ticket wasn't paid or displayed. But it doesn't say permit. They won't though tow for an expired residents permit until 7 days. I suspect they'll say a business bay qualifies for immediate removal.

They can put whatever they want in their policy, but the law is clear and the removal is unlawful. Here's what I would suggest by way of reps. There's no point in going overboard about the sign, because frankly nothing you say is a defence in law, the truth of the matter is you should have looked much harder for the sign. Still, you can still ask for discretion, it can't hurt.

------------------

Dear London Borough of Haringey

Firstly, I make representations against the removal of the vehicle, which was premature. The PCN was issued at 8:38 and the vehicle was removed at 8:41, however regulation 5C(3) of The Removal and Disposal of Vehicles Regulations 1986 provides that:

(3) The power conferred by paragraph (2) is not exercisable where the vehicle concerned is in a parking place and a penalty charge notice has been served as mentioned in paragraph (1)(b) in respect of a contravention consisting of, or arising out of, a failure—

(a) to pay a parking charge with respect to the vehicle;
(b) properly to display a ticket or parking device; or
(с) to remove the vehicle from the parking place by the end of the period for which the appropriate charge was paid,
until the appropriate period has elapsed since the giving of that penalty charge notice in respect of the contravention.

(4) In this regulation—

“the appropriate period” means—
(a) in the case of a vehicle as respects which there are 3 or more penalty charges outstanding, 15 minutes;
(b) in any other case 30 minutes;

The PCN in this instance was issued for contravention code 16 - Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required which is clearly arising out of a failure to properly to display a ticket or parking device. It follows that the council had no power to remove until 30 minutes after service of the PCN, it follows that the removal was unlawful and the towing fees must be refunded.

Furthermore, I ask the council to exercise discretion to cancel the PCN on the basis of the following mitigation.

I had parked at around 2 am (see the enclosed proof of night time parking via receipts from car club- Drive Now) it was pitch dark (there are street lamps only in intersections of this road and they are extremely dim) and I couldn’t see any signs around, the only sign i could see is a resident permit holders only sign on the opposite side of the street. While I appreciate each bay will have its own sign indicating the applicable restrictions, and signs in another bay could not be relied on, the business permit holders sign was 4-5 car lengths away under a tree. The sign pole was black and the sign was facing away from me and would not have been readily visible. Unfortunately the result is that the sign was almost be impossible to see in the dark. While I appreciate this is not a defence in law, as the sign cannot be described as inadequate, the council is nonetheless invited to consider the above mitigation and further to consider excercising discretion to cancel the penalty charge.

Thanks CP I knew I wasn't going mad(der)

[Parker1994]

Thanks CP! Youre a gem! I shall keep you updated on how the appeal goes!

[hcandersen]

OP, the receipt from the car pound states:

Cashiers(include identification seen)
ID + V5C

? If the car is owned by a car club, then surely the V5C is held by them?

[Parker1994]

Hi All

Thanks for your help regarding my PCN appeal. I have now received this notice of rejection from haringey council(Notice of rejection attached). Are they correct in stating that the appropriate period of 15-30 mins doesn’t apply in my circumstance with reference to removal of vehicle. And in terms of signage, do you think worthwhile going to the site and taking pictures of the sign for the adjudicator? There are vans usually in this location as i now know that this is parking for business permit holders. Im sure the sign is short and more towards the edge of the footpath and would be covered by vans parked in this bay which is why i never noticed this sign whilst living here for the past 3 years. Do you think its worth gathering evidence?

heres the notice of rejection.

https://ibb.co/5LbFRYx
https://ibb.co/VMwkHRz
https://ibb.co/HpTL37K

Thanks again!!!! 🙏🏻

[cp8759]

Seems like someone can't even use copy / paste properly:



Anyway, you've got nothing to lose in appealing so I would do exactly that. A specific permit is a "parking device" for the purposes of the regulations, and the 30 minute waiting period therefore applies. You have no real basis to appeal the penalty and the council is unwilling to exercise discretion in your favour, so you'll have to just appeal against the removal.

For now I suggest you just register the appeal and in the further information box write "full grounds to follow", this will force the council to submit its evidence first.

[Parker1994]

Thanks CP!!!! I have just done that now. Should I upload all my evidence now such as the appeal to council and the docs or should I do that 5 days before the hearing?

[cp8759]

I think you should wait and see if the council contests the case first, otherwise you're just wasting time. If the council doesn't upload at least the Notice to Owner, the representations and the Notice of Rejection within 7 days, that's a procedural impropriety that you can add to your grounds of appeal.

[Parker1994]

I think you should wait and see if the council contests the case first, otherwise you're just wasting time. If the council doesn't upload at least the Notice to Owner, the representations and the Notice of Rejection within 7 days, that's a procedural impropriety that you can add to your grounds of appeal.

Hi CP
7 days have elapsed since the adjudicator sent a copy of my appeal to the enforcement authority and the council havent uploaded anything yet. Should i add procedural impropriety to my appeal now citing the relevant legislations?

[cp8759]

If the council contests the case then yes, you should add this procedural impropriety to your appeal.

[Parker1994]

If the council contests the case then yes, you should add this procedural impropriety to your appeal.

Hi CP

I have an adjudicator hearing on 07/12/2019. I checked my appeal status online on 04/12/2019 and had seen that the council hadn't uploaded or sent me anything by 04/12/2019. However, I checked my online appeal portal today 05/12/2019 and have seen that the council have posted their evidence pack etc however, I haven't yet received anything by mail. In the evidence pack i could see a document where the council have stated that they have sent me the documents on 03/12/2019. Have the council breached any time limits that I could use in my case? I did see it mentioned somewhere in the adjudicator's website that the council need to send me evidence by atleast 3 days before the hearing. Do I have additional grounds towards my case here?