PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Parking Fixed Penalty Notice from Vehicle Control Services Ltd - DEMAND FOR PAYMENT, This one is a little more complicated as it involves a company vehicle
clouds23
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 13:50
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18
Joined: 16 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,793



Hi all,

First post here so be easy on me! happy.gif

I drive a company vehicle that is leased out to me and parked in a private flat car park managed by VCS in Birmingham city center. There was clear signage by VCS and I have posted a link below showing an image for the sign - sorry for it being blurred.


Signage

I did have the permit with me but I did not display it on the dash in clear view. Needless to say, I received the fine a couple of weeks later by VCS. I appealed the fine, showing them an image of the valid parking permit and Excel Parking Services replied back to me funnily enough, rejecting my appeal stating:

"The Site Enforcer had reasonable belief that the above vehicle had committed the following contravention:


Contravention: 83) PARKED WITHOUT CLEARLY DISPLAYING A VALID TICKET/PERMIT."

As I drive a company car, I stupidly put in my company address for the appeal. My company then received a letter from VCS demanding payment for the fine and were quite unhappy about it. I called up Excel Parking Services and told them to write me a letter to say they shall pursue me at home address, which I then forwarded on to my company to protect myself.

Now the final deadline is 16th July but I was wondering if the signage is forbidden as the appeal went through Excel Parking Services rather than VCS?

Is it best to ignore? I only hope they do not continue sending letters to my company address.



https://www.dropbox.com/s/upw3z8saks82f3y/K...zdmNKa3hUNUo3cW pzK1NVNENVVzlhQ0xvVE1qbUdqdnh5MHIzc0JUZ2R2bWdQRnp0 SCtmNGU3R29ZZkE9PQ%3D%3D.jpg?dl=0

Link for signage

This post has been edited by clouds23: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 16:55
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 17)
Advertisement
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 13:50
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
The Rookie
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 14:01
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,196
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



Is it really a fixed penalty notice? Do you really own a company vehicle, I presume you are the named user?

It's an invoice not a fine.

A scan/photo of the notice please (personal details obscured).

Was the drivers ID given away in the appeal? Poorly informed appeals make things a whole lot worse.

Yes they will keep writing to the address you provided unless you write and tell them to use your home address, but if it's addressed to you personally it's not an issue the company needs to be worried about.

Please describe your relationship to the car park and is it an allocated space?







--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 16:02
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,088
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Is this car owned by your company or is it leased from another company?

Where do Excel come into it? VCS and Excel often swap roles, which isn't allowed, they are seperate companies

From all this do they know the ID of the driver, Yes or No. If no then get editing the first post to "the driver......"

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 16:05
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
clouds23
post Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 17:04
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18
Joined: 16 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,793



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 15:01) *
Is it really a fixed penalty notice? Do you really own a company vehicle, I presume you are the named user?

It's an invoice not a fine.

A scan/photo of the notice please (personal details obscured).

Was the drivers ID given away in the appeal? Poorly informed appeals make things a whole lot worse.

Yes they will keep writing to the address you provided unless you write and tell them to use your home address, but if it's addressed to you personally it's not an issue the company needs to be worried about.

Please describe your relationship to the car park and is it an allocated space?


Sorry should have been more clear. I don't own the company vehicle, its leased out to me by my company. I was visiting a friend who resides in the block of flats and he provided me with a parking permit with the allocated bay number. I just forget to show this on display but sent Excel Parking Services a copy.

Please see link below for the payment for demand letter:

VSD Demand for Payment

QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 16 Jul 2019 - 17:02) *
Is this car owned by your company or is it leased from another company?

Where do Excel come into it? VCS and Excel often swap roles, which isn't allowed, they are seperate companies

From all this do they know the ID of the driver, Yes or No. If no then get editing the first post to "the driver......"


Excel responded to me when I appealed. I will attempt to show a copy of the letter that responded to my appeal

Yes they know the driver ID and my address as I provided them with this.

Okay, I have also posted a link to the Appeal. The Appeal was actually by VCS so I am struggling to pinpoint how Excel Parking came into this but I know they did somehow.

Page 1:
Appeal Page 1

Page 2:

Appeal Page 2

This post has been edited by clouds23: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 10:46
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 07:39
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,196
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



You've left your name on the letter.

Did you appeal as 'driver' or 'keeper'? You'r reply suggests you don't yet understand the key difference.

Excel and VCS are sister companies, separate legal entities (but shared offices and employees) so Excel should not be replying on a VCS case, I'm guessing an employee pressed the wrong button for the letterhead to use.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
clouds23
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 11:01
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18
Joined: 16 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,793



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 08:39) *
You've left your name on the letter.

Did you appeal as 'driver' or 'keeper'? You'r reply suggests you don't yet understand the key difference.

Excel and VCS are sister companies, separate legal entities (but shared offices and employees) so Excel should not be replying on a VCS case, I'm guessing an employee pressed the wrong button for the letterhead to use.


Thanks for the reply and heads up! I have amended the links.

To be fair, I don't understand the different or its implications properly. Do you mind explaining it in a nut shell?

I have posted a link of VCS stating they will pursue me as the driver of the alleged offence in the link below - this may help clear things up:

VCS Letter of Authorisation of Driver
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 11:56
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,687
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Driver - the person driving the car *at that specific point in time*
Keeper - the person in day to day charge of the car
registered Keeper - the entity the DVLA has recorded as being the keeper
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 12:25
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,088
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



It doesn't clear things up at all, VCS claim from the driver because they often fail to comply with the legislation to hold the keeper liable. So to ask again do they know who the driver was, Yes or No.

And again does the car belong to your company or do they lease it from another company. With a lease car there us nearly always an error by the parking company whereby the hirer/keeper (YOU) cannot be held liable.

You've shown us a reminder PCN. Where is the original?

Not asking for the fun if it, your answers determine which direction to go.

The signs you have shown can be considered prohibiting parking to non permit holders. There us no offer of a contract to a non permit holder, to do so would be perverse as it's forbidden. No contract then there can be no breach of a non existent contract and so no liability for a charge, any charge is a penalty which us not allowed.

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 12:35
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 12:41
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,687
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



Yeah, I will not follow a drop box link> Host pictures at IMGUR, Tinypics etc and use the IMG tag to have the pics load here.

Ostell - I thought VCS dont even bother? They just use the "we will assume the driver is the keeper"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
clouds23
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 15:25
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18
Joined: 16 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,793



QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 13:25) *
It doesn't clear things up at all, VCS claim from the driver because they often fail to comply with the legislation to hold the keeper liable. So to ask again do they know who the driver was, Yes or No.

And again does the car belong to your company or do they lease it from another company. With a lease car there us nearly always an error by the parking company whereby the hirer/keeper (YOU) cannot be held liable.

You've shown us a reminder PCN. Where is the original?

Not asking for the fun if it, your answers determine which direction to go.

The signs you have shown can be considered prohibiting parking to non permit holders. There us no offer of a contract to a non permit holder, to do so would be perverse as it's forbidden. No contract then there can be no breach of a non existent contract and so no liability for a charge, any charge is a penalty which us not allowed.


Right okay, I was the driver at the time the alleged offence occurred. The car belongs to a fleet management company by the name of Inchcape, who lease the company vehicle out to the company I work for.
The original fine was issued on the day of the alleged offence by the parking officer - a stick on paper fine on my car windshield. I have unfortunately misplaced this now.

How should I proceed now?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
clouds23
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 21:03
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18
Joined: 16 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,793



Any advice?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Half_way
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 08:32
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 542
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
Member No.: 57,365



a few points, before you proceed to shoot yourself in the foot, add make things harder to resolve.

There is no fine, the registered keeper had not been fined, better VCS or Excell can fine anyone.

Under no circumstances should you attempt to guess as to the identity of the driver.

And why is a permit required to use the car park space? if your refund have the driver permission to use the space, then why is a further permit required?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 10:40
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,088
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



So throughout all the forum we say "DO NOT IDENTIFY THE DRIVER " what have you done? Get editing.

Your situation is nothing out of the ordinary, it happens regularly. What did you put in your appeal? I dread to think but did it identity the driver?

Is the car hired to you directly or is it to the company and then given to you?

The parking company write to the registered keeper of the car, the hire company, who then identify the hirer. The parking company then write to the hirer and imust nclude copies of the hire contract and original PCN, as required by POFA (14) (2) (a) . If those extra documents are not there, and invariably are not, then there has been no compliance with POFA and therefore liability cannot be transferred from the unknown driver at the time to the hirer/keeper. You were the keeper.

Here's POFA http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9...edule/4/enacted

If the driver has been identified then all of the above is pointless just trying to find out the true situation and if you gave shot yourself in the foot
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
clouds23
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:32
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18
Joined: 16 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,793



Unfortunately I did identify myself as the driver to VCS and have provided my home address.

Is the best course of action to simply pay the fine or ognore it? Note, I have gone past the payment deadline of 16th July.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
clouds23
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 16:33
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18
Joined: 16 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,793



QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 11:40) *
So throughout all the forum we say "DO NOT IDENTIFY THE DRIVER " what have you done? Get editing.

Your situation is nothing out of the ordinary, it happens regularly. What did you put in your appeal? I dread to think but did it identity the driver?

Is the car hired to you directly or is it to the company and then given to you?

The parking company write to the registered keeper of the car, the hire company, who then identify the hirer. The parking company then write to the hirer and imust nclude copies of the hire contract and original PCN, as required by POFA (14) (2) (a) . If those extra documents are not there, and invariably are not, then there has been no compliance with POFA and therefore liability cannot be transferred from the unknown driver at the time to the hirer/keeper. You were the keeper.

Here's POFA http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9...edule/4/enacted

If the driver has been identified then all of the above is pointless just trying to find out the true situation and if you gave shot yourself in the foot


In my appeal I posted a picture to show I had a valid permit (although it was not displayed at the time) when the parking officer saw the car. I told the parking officer I will be back in 10 minutes to get the permit and in that time he issued me a ticket and went off! I provided my name and company address in the appeal. Since, I have told them my home address.

The car is leased out to my company by a fleet management company and is then hired out to me as a company car.

I have received another letter from VC demanding final payment and that they are giving me a final opportunity to pay before they commence County Court Proceedings. Shall I continue to ignore?

This post has been edited by clouds23: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 16:38
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 19:01
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,126
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



Two options

1 Ignore

VCS will normally pass the account to BWLegal
The first BWL letter will add £60 legal costs
These can't be recovered in Small Claims so it will leave them with some explaining to do in the event of legal action

2 Treat the letter as a Letter Before Action and send a robust reply complete with a request for information and all the documents that VCS intends to rely on

This will disrupt the letter chain and leave VCS unable to employ BWL to send its standard debt collection letter with additional charge

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
clouds23
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 19:22
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18
Joined: 16 Jul 2019
Member No.: 104,793



Thanks. I would like go forward with Option 2.

Do we have a template on this forum that I could use to help write up the letter? is it recommended to post an actual letter or would an email suffice?

Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 19:34
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,126
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



Download the form here

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...ls/debt-pap.pdf

Will have to come up with the Box I list of questions when have more time

An obvious one is why the original appeal was processed by a third party, Excel

Come to think of it, that's a valid reason for a complaint to the ICO

The ICO goes to a lot of effort to excuse bad behaviour by the parking industry but it will still result in some inconvenience for the company
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 13:19
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here