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PCN advice - special enforcement area
thingy112
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 21:46
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Hi there

I have a PCN from my local council for parking in a space that was for 'Permit holders on event days' but otherwise outside of charging periods as it was a Saturday. The evidence they supplied was my car in the space at the times and a picture of said sign.

We have always assumed if there was an event day then it would be advertised there, but it turns out not. Instead, there is a sign which is not visible from where I parked which the council updates with the next event day. Ths sign is called a CPZ entry sign and was roughly 100-150m down the road and obscured by a bush from my position. I have photographic evidence that this sign is not visible from where I parked, and additionally there is no CPZ entry sign on the route I take to get to the parking space.

I thought we had a pretty good case, so appealed the PCN sending in the evidence. This was rejected, the rejection letter is here:

https://imgur.com/a/lHN7s2b
I've blacked out the council, the specific date and the name of the event. The specific date the scheme went live is well before I moved to the area. Essentially the council argues it was my responsibility to find out when event days are taking place.

My discount payment window was frozen when I appealed to the council, so I can either pay within about 10 days and pay £55, or risk going all the way to pay nothing but if I fail pay £110.

My question is do you think I have a case to take this further? Happy to provide any further non-personal information you guys need.
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post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 21:46
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stamfordman
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 21:54
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QUOTE (thingy112 @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:46) *
We have always assumed if there was an event day then it would be advertised there,

I've blacked out the council, the specific date and the name of the event.



But you can't have ever seen event days on bay signs - were you totally unaware of the zone entry signs?

It's no good blanking details. Is this Brent, Wembley?


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thingy112
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:13
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Apologies I had posted this on Reddit initially but was redirected here and didnt realise how much more open people are on these things. It's Barnet Council, Saracens CPZ. There was no zone entry sign on the route I take to the parking space (to which I have photographic evidence). I am aware there are sometimes event days but never knew when they were. Only after getting the ticket did I walk down the road and find it was on that day.

I would also add they are pretty infrequent event days (though I'm not sure if that helps). I remember seeing it as 22 Apr for a few months when walking past on my way to the tube (Mill Hill East).

This post has been edited by thingy112: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:20
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Neil B
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:19
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QUOTE (thingy112 @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 23:13) *
on the route I take

Which was?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:20
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QUOTE (thingy112 @ Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 23:13) *
There was no zone entry sign on the route I take to the parking space (to which I have photographic evidence).



Was or is? No entry sign on route = no contravention.

Post pics and PCN. Use a site such as https://ibb.co

Give us a Google Street View location.
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thingy112
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:27
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Sure, the route is Inglis Way to Bittacy Hill. The spaces are on Bittacy Hill before the tube. You can see the parking area after the bus stop on the way down to the tube station on street view though it is from June 2017. There is a CPZ entry sign further down but as I said it was obscured by a bush when I went down there. There was no entry sign when we got the ticket, I can have a look tomorrow to see if thats still the case.

https://ibb.co/bJZgMp
https://ibb.co/c6P3Z9
https://ibb.co/dQ6Hu9

I believe if I turn right at the roundabout theres also some signs up there which I can get some pictures of tomorrow.

Edit: and here is the PCN

https://ibb.co/eUjO1p

This post has been edited by thingy112: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 22:34
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thingy112
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 16:40
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I've confirmed there are still no signs on my route to enter the CPZ. There are signs to the right of the roundabout where I turnin to the CPZ but obviously only visible on the left of the road implying it's from that point on.

So from what's been said above I can probably win if I take it further in that there were no entry signs correct?
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stamfordman
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 17:50
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QUOTE (thingy112 @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 17:40) *
I've confirmed there are still no signs on my route to enter the CPZ. There are signs to the right of the roundabout where I turnin to the CPZ but obviously only visible on the left of the road implying it's from that point on.



Don't understand - you may be best to annotate a map.
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thingy112
post Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 18:40
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Very well - annotated map below:

https://ibb.co/cO4onU

So I do not pass the CPZ entry signs on my way in. I can just about see the one up the hill from the roundabout as I turn, and the one at the bottom was obscured as per my pictures before.

Therefore the only way I know that there is some kind of restriction is the sign here:

https://ibb.co/mf59cU

Which gives me no information of when the event days are.

This post has been edited by thingy112: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 18:44
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stamfordman
post Wed, 26 Sep 2018 - 08:49
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Looking on street view it seems very odd as you can drive through entry signs both inside and outside at both the points you mark so they seem to be repeaters. But if you appear in the middle as you seem to have done then it only looks like you entering not leaving...

The key is whether there is an entry sign on Inglis or further back on your route, as street view is too old there.

But the signage seems to be a mess anyway.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 - 08:50
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thingy112
post Wed, 26 Sep 2018 - 16:46
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Fair enough, yeah I can confirm there are no signs on Inglis Way beforehand.

I guess then from your comments I may be able to beat it? I'll look for an FAQ on all the processes when I get home, thanks for your help.

This post has been edited by thingy112: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 - 16:47
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thingy112
post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 17:15
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Okay - so from the letter rejecting my informal challenge it states I should wait to receive the Notice to Owner which will be served 28 days after I got the rejection letter. At this point I can make a formal representation against the PCN to the council.

I've been looking around the website and the internet for some guidance on preparing this representation for my specific case which is that there is no entry sign on my route to the parking space, but am coming up a bit empty. Even the file of cases to assist I can only find ones peripherally mentioning the CPZs.

Would anyone with alot more experience on this be able to point out where I can go for aid?

Thanks
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Neil B
post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 17:47
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QUOTE (thingy112 @ Tue, 25 Sep 2018 - 19:40) *
https://ibb.co/cO4onU

So I do not pass the CPZ entry signs on my way in.

Your map doesn't show that. It only shows you didn't pass either of the signs on Bittacy.

Saying there's no earlier sign on Inglis is also irrelevant.

You need to establish the boundaries of the zone and hence your entry point.

I can't find a map yet via their website.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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thingy112
post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 18:06
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Ah apologies - I must have misunderstood the earlier poster then.

The CPZ information is here:

https://www.barnet.gov.uk/citizen-home/park...nt-day-cpz.html

There is a map available at the bottom of that page, I've linked a screenshot below for ease. The map appears to be the proposed zoning as its dated 31/10/12. Back then it looks like Inglis Way was named Bray Road.

https://ibb.co/d6QteK

So you can see the boundaries of the zone encompass the entirety of Bittacy Hill but not Inglis Way. At my entry point from Inglis Way there is no CPZ entry sign as per this image: https://ibb.co/bJZgMp (the roundabout at the end of the road is the turning onto Bittacy Hill).

I also do not pass any CPZ entry signs after turning left on the roundabout up to the parking space.

This post has been edited by thingy112: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 18:07
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Neil B
post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 18:28
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Good find.

That helps a lot.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 18:29
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Below is the Barnet traffic web order map for that area. The yellow line you are on must be controlled either by a CPZ entry sign or by a timeplate on the line - are you sure there isn't one?

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thingy112
post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 18:36
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 19:28) *
Good find.

That helps a lot.


Do you therefore think I can successfully appeal this? I'm still within the 14 day £55 period.

Re. Stamfordman

I believe on that map I was parked in the blue area. Again - there is no CPZ entry sign on the route I take to that blue area (turning left off Bray, now Inglis road), however there is this signage which encompasses that parking area https://ibb.co/mf59cU

There are CPZ entry signs both further down Bittacy Hill and further up it, but none which I pass turning off from Inglis.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 18:51
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Ok some confusion here - you were in a parking pay which is controlled by its own sign. CPZ times apply to single yellow lines not to bays, which is why they have their own signs. But councils are signing entry to zones with event day times and adding restrictions to bays.

Without debating the rights and wrong of this the same thing applies - they cannot enforce an event day in a bay without ensuring you pass an entry sign with the day on it.

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Neil B
post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 18:56
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I'm seeing signs in both directions near the junction with Bittacy Rd.
One turned round maybe?

Might be what Stamf was talking about.

Either way they don't match the map you've found.

I'm totally confused.

--
Basics.
What have you actually got a PCN for?

Where, exactly were you parked and pics of bay signs needed.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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thingy112
post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 18:59
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 19:51) *
Ok some confusion here - you were in a parking pay which is controlled by its own sign. CPZ times apply to single yellow lines not to bays, which is why they have their own signs. But councils are signing entry to zones with event day times and adding restrictions to bays.

Without debating the rights and wrong of this the same thing applies - they cannot enforce an event day in a bay without ensuring you pass an entry sign with the day on it.


Apologies for the confusion, but great, this is definitely the case and I have sufficient photographic evidence to prove it.

I looked through the list of cases stickied in this forum but couldn't find one to refer to were I to make the appeal. Is there any guidance you can link me to?
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