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cp8759
post Thu, 4 Aug 2022 - 23:06
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And here we go:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-...l-loophole.html

https://www.mylondon.news/news/east-london-...escape-24667995

https://walthamforestecho.co.uk/waltham-for...own-law#article


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post Thu, 4 Aug 2022 - 23:06
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andy_foster
post Thu, 4 Aug 2022 - 23:18
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Well done. The use of the "f" word is likely to trigger the usual suspect, but the distinction between fines authorised by statute and issued by the judiciary and penalties authorised by statute and issued by the executive is minimal. However, quite how you "... help total strangers escape £130 fines from London's most prolific speed cameras" (MyLondon) albeit in single quotes is beyond me. Presumably the single quotes are to indicate that you didn't actually say what they are quoting you as having said?

Hu sed zat ze kwality ov gernalizum iz ded?


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Andy

Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit.
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cp8759
post Thu, 4 Aug 2022 - 23:21
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Well the quotes were not exactly verbatim but hopefully we'll get some more traffic to the site.


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The Rookie
post Fri, 5 Aug 2022 - 06:46
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Good effort, well done.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Schofeldt
post Fri, 5 Aug 2022 - 09:10
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https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A13usao...UX._SY._UY_.png


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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astralite
post Fri, 5 Aug 2022 - 21:01
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Surely, after your work to get the press involved and to draw attention to PePiPoo, it would be much better to have a PePiPoo focussed tee shirt rather than a generalised one about photographers. ….

This post has been edited by astralite: Sat, 6 Aug 2022 - 07:09
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Schofeldt
post Sun, 7 Aug 2022 - 10:59
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QUOTE (astralite @ Fri, 5 Aug 2022 - 22:01) *
Surely, after your work to get the press involved and to draw attention to PePiPoo, it would be much better to have a PePiPoo focussed tee shirt rather than a generalised one about photographers. ….

Depends on what the moderators think.


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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Schofeldt
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 08:16
Post #8


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Group: Members
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Here is cp 8759's camera approval template:

https://www.redbridge.gov.uk/parking/penalt...e-notices-pcns/

Anyone with a bus lane PCN in London should use it.


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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Schofeldt
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 08:40
Post #9


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Group: Members
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 5 Aug 2022 - 00:06) *


As per cp8759's hardwork, Waltham Forest applied for a review which was dismissed ab inito and the adjudicator urged the authority to research the law!

Case: 2220271919

Reasons for refusal


The Authority challenges the original Adjudicator's decision on the basis that the recording device
needs only to be prescribed under the RTA 1988.
The first point that must be made is the London Councils is not a party to the proceedings nor have
they offered any evidence in this case. An untested opinion of a third party carries little to no weight.
A "prescribed device" under the 1996 Act means a device prescribed under section 20(9) of the Road
Traffic Offenders Act 1988 or a device of a description specified in regulations made for the purposes
of this section by the Secretary of State. RTA 1988 means the Road Traffic Act 1988 and it has no
relevance.
Even if the Authority meant to say the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, it had failed to address the
Appellant's point that the Authority's undated witness statement dated by Ms Sonia Lloyd describes
the device as an approved device under Article 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking and Traffic
Contraventions (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2007. There is no reference to the Road Traffic
Offenders Act 1988. The case summary repeats the statement and omission.
The Authority suggests that requirement under the Transport Act 2000 has no application in London.
This may be correct, so it is unclear why the Authority (and not the Appellant) chose to introduce a
certificate under the Transport Act 2000 into evidence.
Furthermore, the Appellant made the point that Ms Sonia Lloyd failed to attend the hearing despite
the Appellant serving notice under Paragraph 7(6), Schedule 1 of the 1996 Act. The Appellant also
made the point that on a previous occasion (appeal no. 2210847074), the Authority took the view that
the attendance of the statement maker was unnecessary.
The attendance of Ms Lloyd was necessary to enable her statement to be admitted in evidence. The
consequence of this failure is that Ms Lloyd's statement is inadmissible, so it follows that there is no
evidence that the camera was approved/prescribed at all.
The Adjudicator's decision did not disclose an error. The Adjudicator urges the Authority to research
the law and review its evidence in the light of the research before making an application for a review.
The application for review is rejected because no ground for review identified under the regulations.


This post has been edited by Schofeldt: Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 08:41


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 09:14
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From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (Schofeldt @ Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 09:40) *
The Adjudicator urges the Authority to research
the law and review its evidence in the light of the research before making an application for a review.
The application for review is rejected because no ground for review identified under the regulations.

That is definitely worth reposting, if only for the biggrin.gif I want to add!

Ouch!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Schofeldt
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 09:18
Post #11


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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 10:14) *
QUOTE (Schofeldt @ Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 09:40) *
The Adjudicator urges the Authority to research
the law and review its evidence in the light of the research before making an application for a review.
The application for review is rejected because no ground for review identified under the regulations.

That is definitely worth reposting, if only for the biggrin.gif I want to add!

Ouch!

Dear Cllr.

I now refer you to your failed application for a review in Case 2220271919 which was refused ab initio.

It is highly remarkable that the Adjudicator urged the authority to research the law etc.

Reasons for refusal

The Authority challenges the original Adjudicator's decision on the basis that the recording device
needs only to be prescribed under the RTA 1988.
The first point that must be made is the London Councils is not a party to the proceedings nor have
they offered any evidence in this case. An untested opinion of a third party carries little to no weight.
A "prescribed device" under the 1996 Act means a device prescribed under section 20(9) of the Road
Traffic Offenders Act 1988 or a device of a description specified in regulations made for the purposes
of this section by the Secretary of State. RTA 1988 means the Road Traffic Act 1988 and it has no
relevance.
Even if the Authority meant to say the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, it had failed to address the
Appellant's point that the Authority's undated witness statement dated by Ms Sonia Lloyd describes
the device as an approved device under Article 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking and Traffic
Contraventions (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2007. There is no reference to the Road Traffic
Offenders Act 1988. The case summary repeats the statement and omission.
The Authority suggests that requirement under the Transport Act 2000 has no application in London.
This may be correct, so it is unclear why the Authority (and not the Appellant) chose to introduce a
certificate under the Transport Act 2000 into evidence.
Furthermore, the Appellant made the point that Ms Sonia Lloyd failed to attend the hearing despite
the Appellant serving notice under Paragraph 7(6), Schedule 1 of the 1996 Act. The Appellant also
made the point that on a previous occasion (appeal no. 2210847074), the Authority took the view that
the attendance of the statement maker was unnecessary.

The attendance of Ms Lloyd was necessary to enable her statement to be admitted in evidence. The
consequence of this failure is that Ms Lloyd's statement is inadmissible, so it follows that there is no
evidence that the camera was approved/prescribed at all.
The Adjudicator's decision did not disclose an error. The Adjudicator urges the Authority to research
the law and review its evidence in the light of the research before making an application for a review.
The application for review is rejected because no ground for review identified under the regulations.


As your authority is clearly not taking this matter seriously, I shall be making a formal complaint to the Chief Adjudicator, Mr Anthony Chan as you are not only raking in millions of pounds unjustly but also wasting the time of the Tribunal and, last but not least, causing misery and stress to many motorists as a direct result.

Yours sincerely


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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cp8759
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 10:07
Post #12


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Mr Anthony Chan has no remit to deal with such a complaint though. London Tribunals is not a disciplinary body for local authorities.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 10:07


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Schofeldt
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 10:30
Post #13


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 11:07) *
Mr Anthony Chan has no remit to deal with such a complaint though. London Tribunals is not a disciplinary body for local authorities.

Point taken; however, if the boot were on the other foot say, for example, a representative were to be found to be wasting the Tribunal's time, as this council is surely doing, he would take a different view. This council is playing the same record and accruing millions in the process. cf. with my complaint re Lambeth who are misrepresenting an adjudicator's decision. If I were to utter such untruths, he would take punitive action for sure.

This post has been edited by Schofeldt: Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 10:31


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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cp8759
post Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 11:34
Post #14


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Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
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QUOTE (Schofeldt @ Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 11:30) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 11:07) *
Mr Anthony Chan has no remit to deal with such a complaint though. London Tribunals is not a disciplinary body for local authorities.

Point taken; however, if the boot were on the other foot say, for example, a representative were to be found to be wasting the Tribunal's time, as this council is surely doing, he would take a different view. This council is playing the same record and accruing millions in the process. cf. with my complaint re Lambeth who are misrepresenting an adjudicator's decision. If I were to utter such untruths, he would take punitive action for sure.

The only redress is costs orders in the tribunal (hence the more appellants we can find the better). If the council lost and got 10 adverse costs orders in a row, I'd expect the national press to pick up on it in rather stronger terms, and that sort of thing might actually force them to stop issuing.


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astralite
post Tue, 9 Aug 2022 - 16:47
Post #15


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 12:34) *
QUOTE (Schofeldt @ Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 11:30) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 8 Aug 2022 - 11:07) *
Mr Anthony Chan has no remit to deal with such a complaint though. London Tribunals is not a disciplinary body for local authorities.

Point taken; however, if the boot were on the other foot say, for example, a representative were to be found to be wasting the Tribunal's time, as this council is surely doing, he would take a different view. This council is playing the same record and accruing millions in the process. cf. with my complaint re Lambeth who are misrepresenting an adjudicator's decision. If I were to utter such untruths, he would take punitive action for sure.

The only redress is costs orders in the tribunal (hence the more appellants we can find the better). If the council lost and got 10 adverse costs orders in a row, I'd expect the national press to pick up on it in rather stronger terms, and that sort of thing might actually force them to stop issuing.

Bus lane fines/penalties are not sexy.
A costs order is very important symbolically but at £76 a throw (so far) they can laugh all the way to the bank and tell porkies.
At the risk of sounding flippant it seems that a wagagatha levels of costs would be needed to attract the attention of the responsible councillors.
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Schofeldt
post Tue, 9 Aug 2022 - 19:18
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Es el tiempo de Zorro. Or maybe not.

This post has been edited by Schofeldt: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 - 09:34


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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Schofeldt
post Thu, 11 Aug 2022 - 09:21
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,411
Joined: 14 Apr 2022
Member No.: 116,298



https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/hundreds-of-...gally-approved/

A Hammersmith and Fulham council spokesman said: “All Penalty Charge Notices are issued by an officer who reviews the video footage, and all bus lane cameras operating in London are prescribed under section 4(1) of the LLAA 96.”

When asked to provide proof that the borough’s cameras were in line with legislation, it did not respond.


This post has been edited by Schofeldt: Thu, 11 Aug 2022 - 09:24


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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astralite
post Thu, 11 Aug 2022 - 16:13
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,267
Joined: 10 Mar 2014
Member No.: 69,352



QUOTE (Schofeldt @ Thu, 11 Aug 2022 - 10:21) *
https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/hundreds-of-...gally-approved/

A Hammersmith and Fulham council spokesman said: “All Penalty Charge Notices are issued by an officer who reviews the video footage, and all bus lane cameras operating in London are prescribed under section 4(1) of the LLAA 96.”

When asked to provide proof that the borough’s cameras were in line with legislation, it did not respond.


Kingston Motorist has put a comment on the londonnewsonline site:
'Very informative and excellent reporting.'
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Schofeldt
post Thu, 11 Aug 2022 - 16:38
Post #19


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Group: Members
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The Department for Transport could not confirm which legislation councils in London should be using and said that adjudicators should have the final say on bus lane fines.


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
Go to the top of the page
 
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Schofeldt
post Wed, 17 Aug 2022 - 10:34
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,411
Joined: 14 Apr 2022
Member No.: 116,298



Dear Cllr. Cowan

I refer you to this story concerning London Bus Lane cameras:

https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/hundreds-of-...gally-approved/

“A Hammersmith and Fulham council spokesman said: “All Penalty Charge Notices are issued by an officer who reviews the video footage, and all bus lane cameras operating in London are prescribed under section 4(1) of the LLAA 96.”

When asked to provide proof that the borough’s cameras were in line with legislation, it did not respond.”


In this regard, I now refer you to the attached file upon which your parking department relies. This document flies in the face of the legislation since it refers to The Traffic Management Act 2004 and not the London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended).

The LLA Act 1996 clearly states:

Under section 4(1) of the London Local Authorities Act 1996, a PCN may only be served "on the basis of information provided by the use of a prescribed device", section 3 (1) defines a prescribed device in the following terms:

“prescribed device” means a device prescribed under section 20(9) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 or a device of a description specified in regulations made for the purposes of this section by the Secretary of State;

In addition to being prescribed, the camera must also be approved, as sub-paragraphs 7(2) & (3) of Schedule 1 to the Act provide that:

(2) A record produced or measurement made by a prescribed device shall not be admissible as evidence of a fact relevant to proceedings under paragraph 6 above unless—
(a) the device is of a type approved by the Secretary of State; and
(b) any conditions subject to which the approval was given are satisfied.

(3) Any approval given by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this paragraph may be given subject to conditions as to the purposes for which, and the manner and other circumstances in which, any device of the type concerned is to be used.

Therefore, your camera has not been approved for the purposes of paragraph 7 of Schedule 1 to the 1996 Act and it is not both prescribed under section 3(1) and authorised under paragraph 7 of Schedule 1, so its video evidence is not admissible in tribunal proceedings. I refer you to the correspondence, links and cases below in support of my argument and trust that you will forward this message to the appropriate department for their immediate attention.

Meanwhile, I request that your council ceases enforcement of all its bus lanes forthwith until you (and other councils) resolve the matter.

I look forward to your response. Please note that this is a formal complaint and I can do no better than state that the person who released that aforementioned statement in Italics should be researching the law at the earliest opportunity.

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PAD 017

This post has been edited by Schofeldt: Wed, 17 Aug 2022 - 12:40


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People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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