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UK Court Case over a Speeding Ticket in Germany, I am being taken to court over a speeding fine in Germany - any help w
Shuly Vorhand
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 06:23
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i was speeding in Germany in 2011 - they sent me few letters which i did not respond to at the time as i can not read or write German - i wrote to them and the rental company that to communicate with me in English, but i heard no response from them - about a month ago i got a letter from the HM Courts of a NOTICE OF REQUEST FOR ENFORCEMENT allowing me to subit my views why i think the UK should not at on behalf of this EU state, Germany in my case and oppose this financial penalty to be treated like a UK fine.

i now have a court case that i personally have to attend to, and view my say.

has anyone had this before? can anyone help with this at all? ideas? people to speak to? any ways out? something...?

THANKS

This post has been edited by Shuly Vorhand: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 06:23
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post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 06:23
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bama
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 06:38
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what does the summons say re charges ?


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

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Shuly Vorhand
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 06:47
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QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 06:38) *
what does the summons say re charges ?


they orignal fine of 420 euros in germany

the uk court papers didnt give me any information - i want to know if there is a way out here or what to say in court etc
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andy_foster
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 06:48
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QUOTE (Shuly Vorhand @ Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 07:23) *
i was speeding in Germany in 2011 - they sent me few letters which i did not respond to at the time as i can not read or write German - i wrote to them and the rental company that to communicate with me in English, but i heard no response from them - about a month ago i got a letter from the HM Courts of a NOTICE OF REQUEST FOR ENFORCEMENT allowing me to subit my views why i think the UK should not at on behalf of this EU state, Germany in my case and oppose this financial penalty to be treated like a UK fine.

i now have a court case that i personally have to attend to, and view my say.

has anyone had this before? can anyone help with this at all? ideas? people to speak to? any ways out? something...?


Can you scan, scrub [your personally identifiable details] and post this letter? I suspect that the letter may not be what it appears to be.


The obvious question would initially seem to be what legislation they believe gives them jurisdiction to register an alleged foreign debt as a fine - although perhaps a more pertinent question would seem to be why the courts appear to be writing to you to ask you whether they are allowed to do this.



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Shuly Vorhand
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 06:54
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 06:48) *
QUOTE (Shuly Vorhand @ Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 07:23) *
i was speeding in Germany in 2011 - they sent me few letters which i did not respond to at the time as i can not read or write German - i wrote to them and the rental company that to communicate with me in English, but i heard no response from them - about a month ago i got a letter from the HM Courts of a NOTICE OF REQUEST FOR ENFORCEMENT allowing me to subit my views why i think the UK should not at on behalf of this EU state, Germany in my case and oppose this financial penalty to be treated like a UK fine.

i now have a court case that i personally have to attend to, and view my say.

has anyone had this before? can anyone help with this at all? ideas? people to speak to? any ways out? something...?


Can you scan, scrub [your personally identifiable details] and post this letter? I suspect that the letter may not be what it appears to be.


The obvious question would initially seem to be what legislation they believe gives them jurisdiction to register an alleged foreign debt as a fine - although perhaps a more pertinent question would seem to be why the courts appear to be writing to you to ask you whether they are allowed to do this.


it is a mistake thats says 2001 its supposed to say 2011

This post has been edited by Shuly Vorhand: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 06:55
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The Rookie
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 07:17
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ALL the page, headers etc etc etc....

So it looks like they have concluded you owe a debt.

The act
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/4/contents

Schedule 18 for suitable situations
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/4/schedule/18

Schedule 19
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/4/schedule/19

However
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/4/section/84

This is the relevant excemptions which also menations schedule 19
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2008/4...s-miscellaneous

Will read up before commenting more

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 07:27


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Warwick
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 07:34
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QUOTE (Shuly Vorhand @ Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 07:23) *
i now have a court case that i personally have to attend to, and view my say


With all due respect, you now had a court case.

Date of hearing is listed as 21/06/2012 on the letter. ohmy.gif


W
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Shuly Vorhand
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 07:35
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QUOTE (Warwick @ Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 07:34) *
QUOTE (Shuly Vorhand @ Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 07:23) *
i now have a court case that i personally have to attend to, and view my say


With all due respect, you now had a court case.

Date of hearing is listed as 21/06/2012 on the letter. ohmy.gif


W



thats was first hearing - i now have to appear in court - next week
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The Rookie
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 07:55
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Relevant part seems to be

6. The certificate does not confirm that—.
(a)if the proceedings in which the decision was made were conducted in writing, the liable person was informed of the right to contest the proceedings and of the time limits that applied to the exercise of that right;.
(b)if those proceedings provided for a hearing to take place and the liable person did not attend, the liable person was informed of the proceedings or indicated an intention not to contest them.

So what is in the certificates? I note that the writing does not have to be in English, although 'informed' is somewhat subjective, if you can't read what was sent, are you informed by it? Some case or other law would be handy on this!

If there are no certificates then section 6 (above) is surely satisfied and the alleged debt not enforceable.

I wonder if the 2001/11 cockup is enough as any paperwork from Germany surely relates to a different offence than the 2001 (sic) one?

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 07:57


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Shuly Vorhand
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 08:04
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 08:55) *
Relevant part seems to be

6. The certificate does not confirm that—.
(a)if the proceedings in which the decision was made were conducted in writing, the liable person was informed of the right to contest the proceedings and of the time limits that applied to the exercise of that right;.
(b)if those proceedings provided for a hearing to take place and the liable person did not attend, the liable person was informed of the proceedings or indicated an intention not to contest them.

So what is in the certificates? I note that the writing does not have to be in English, although 'informed' is somewhat subjective, if you can't read what was sent, are you informed by it? Some case or other law would be handy on this!

If there are no certificates then section 6 (above) is surely satisfied and the alleged debt not enforceable.

I wonder if the 2001/11 cockup is enough as any paperwork from Germany surely relates to a different offence than the 2001 (sic) one?


thank you for that - the certificate does indicate that they informed me and i did not attend a court
i dont recall getting a court order - besides that i wrote back to them that i need it to be in english for me to understand

so your saying i dont have chance of getting away with this?

other question is -

what if i go to court and say "sorry i wasnt in Germany in 2001" they may so ok we will send that on to germany - and then this hole saga will happen again in few months when Germany correct the error in the paperwork and then i am faced with the same issue

would it not just be better to ignore the cock up of 2001- 2011 and just try argue for the actual case?
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andy_foster
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 09:08
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Article 6 ECHR

QUOTE
Right to a fair trial
1 In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.

2 Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.

3 Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a)to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b)to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
©to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d)to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e)to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.


The legislation must be read in such a way as to give effect to Convention rights.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 09:29
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Nice spot Andy, so as all the paperwork was in German and as art6 requires an accused to be informed in a langauge they understand, Shurly was not 'informed' and can therefore invoke section6 of Schedule 19.

Shurley, to be clear, this is not as easy as just turning up and saying it is so, you'll need a reasoned legal argument, so you need to take Schedule19, point out section6, copies of ECHR as shown there by Andy and point out that you were not informed as required, you'll need copies of all relevant docs for you, for the CPS (assuming they represnt 'Germany', or it may be the legal advisor) and the Magistrates (although I'd expect this to be dealt with by a judge to be honest).

Does the supporting info include your original German paperwork, do you still have a copy (I hope so), do you have a copy of return letters? Do you actually understand German?

If Shurley uses a solicitor will he be able to claim costs?


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Shuly Vorhand
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 09:31
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 09:08) *
Article 6 ECHR

QUOTE
Right to a fair trial
1 In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.

2 Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.

3 Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a)to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b)to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
©to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d)to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e)to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.


The legislation must be read in such a way as to give effect to Convention rights.


thanks for that - am i able to quote this in court when faced with questions?
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Shuly Vorhand
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 09:41
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in Schdeule 19
Part 2
European framework list (financial penalties)

it does not state that speeding in the list

shed some light?
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The Rookie
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 09:41
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See my subsquant post....


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Shuly Vorhand
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 09:43
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 09:29) *
Nice spot Andy, so as all the paperwork was in German and as art6 requires an accused to be informed in a langauge they understand, Shurly was not 'informed' and can therefore invoke section6 of Schedule 19.

Shurley, to be clear, this is not as easy as just turning up and saying it is so, you'll need a reasoned legal argument, so you need to take Schedule19, point out section6, copies of ECHR as shown there by Andy and point out that you were not informed as required, you'll need copies of all relevant docs for you, for the CPS (assuming they represnt 'Germany', or it may be the legal advisor) and the Magistrates (although I'd expect this to be dealt with by a judge to be honest).

Does the supporting info include your original German paperwork, do you still have a copy (I hope so), do you have a copy of return letters? Do you actually understand German?

If Shurley uses a solicitor will he be able to claim costs?



i have all paperwork they ever sent me - i do not read any german what so ever.

can i quote all of this stuff in court myself?
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The Rookie
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 09:53
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QUOTE (Shuly Vorhand @ Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 10:41) *
in Schdeule 19
Part 2
European framework list (financial penalties)

it does not state that speeding in the list

shed some light?

That is a list of offences IT CANNOT be applied to, if speeding were on that list they wouldn't/shouldn't still be after you.

Care to answer my questions?

You can do it yourself, but you need to be thoroughly prepared, although the legal advisor should impartially advise you, it doesn't always work that way!


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Shuly Vorhand
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 12:18
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i have all the paperwork and i do not speak german
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homeruk
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 13:08
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Would one of the questions asked by the courts be why didn't you get a friend or a member of the Vorhand household/family to translate the documents for you?
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The Rookie
post Wed, 11 Jul 2012 - 13:09
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OK, then you need to put together a structured defence based on the working of section 6 as I posted (but take the whole of schedule 19 so they don't get silly) and article6 of ECHR, that you were not informed in a language you could understand of any case therefor based on section 6 you must not be made to pay.

HOWEVER if anyone has a counter argument best to post it now so we can put a rebuttal together so on the day you're as ready as you can be.

Just to ad another string to the bow, where do you think the 2011/2001 date swap occured based on what you have, if te papers from Germany are all correct and the error is here in the UK it will probably be corrected under the 'slip rule', if it's earlier, not, so less see if we can get you some more security.


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