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VCS PCN, LJLA - Stopping in a zone where stopping is prohibited
johnandmon
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 16:39
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Good Afternoon.

First of all the issue occurred 16th June.

The PCN was sent to me as the Registered Keeper.

The PCN document was accidentally disposed of, so I do not have the paperwork. I called VCS today and they gave me the reference number and I was able to access the following information from their website:

"The Site Enforcer had reasonable belief that the above vehicle had committed the following contravention:

The issue Contravention: 46) STOPPING IN A ZONE WHERE STOPPING IS PROHIBITED

Site / Location: Liverpool John Lennon Airport

Postal Town / City: Liverpool (L24 1YD)

Date and time (removed)

Photographic Evidence
1,2,3

The above images were captured as evidence of the contravention."


So, the driver dropped off 2 relatives at the roundabout near the terminal. Red lines are in place and the ANPR vehicle was parked about 10 metres away. The drop off took 2 minutes. It was a Sunday and I understand no other vehicle came into that area at the time.
The driver did leave the car and their image may have been captured by the same vehicle.
I note that the 'discount' period has elapsed yesterday. Charge is £100.

Having read through similar cases is the defence regarding the Airport bye-laws sufficient?

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

This post has been edited by johnandmon: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 16:41


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post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 16:39
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Sheffield Dave
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 16:46
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The byelaws defence merely means that they can only claim off the driver and not the keeper. It's possible for the judge to ask the defendant whether they were the driver, which you would be obliged to answer truthfully.
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johnandmon
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 21:01
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QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 16:46) *
The byelaws defence merely means that they can only claim off the driver and not the keeper. It's possible for the judge to ask the defendant whether they were the driver, which you would be obliged to answer truthfully.


Thanks Sheffield Dave. Are there any grounds to appeal?


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anon45
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 22:00
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Reviewing the airport byelaws at: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1986...e_passthrough=1, it is a criminal offence under byelaw 5(iii)(a) to "drive, park or leave a vehicle elsewhere than in a place provided for that purpose without the permission of the Airport Director".

The question is whether a PPC may offer an (enforceable) civil contract to do that which is a criminal offence. Having reviewed a briefing at: http://www.inhouselawyer.co.uk/legal-brief...y-in-contracts/, my own (unqualified) view is that such a contract is void for illegality.

This post has been edited by anon45: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 22:00
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johnandmon
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 09:36
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Thanks Anon 45

Would anyone add anything regarding likelihood of appeal success?


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John
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 09:42
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Have you read ANY threads about VCS or this site?
If you had done, you wouldknow you do not "succeed" on these appeals - they never accept any appeal, ever. The point is you make yourself too tough for them to try in court.
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johnandmon
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:42
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 09:42) *
Have you read ANY threads about VCS or this site?
If you had done, you wouldknow you do not "succeed" on these appeals - they never accept any appeal, ever. The point is you make yourself too tough for them to try in court.


I have read some yes. I indicated this on my original post.

Sorry for my clumsy language. I meant to ask the best strategy to keep it out of court.


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Umkomaas
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 16:00
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QUOTE (johnandmon @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:42) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 09:42) *
Have you read ANY threads about VCS or this site?
If you had done, you wouldknow you do not "succeed" on these appeals - they never accept any appeal, ever. The point is you make yourself too tough for them to try in court.


I have read some yes. I indicated this on my original post.

Sorry for my clumsy language. I meant to ask the best strategy to keep it out of court.

The only way to guarantee to keep this out of court is to pay them what they want. Outside of that, the whole process is in their hands, you are not in control and can only wait to see what their next move might be.

They seem to have been reluctant to issue court proceedings so far for LJLA (Webster1 being the main trend-bucking case), but they do have 6 years available to them to pursue this to the county court.
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bama
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 20:09
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QUOTE (anon45 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 23:00) *
Reviewing the airport byelaws at: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1986...e_passthrough=1, it is a criminal offence under byelaw 5(iii)(a) to "drive, park or leave a vehicle elsewhere than in a place provided for that purpose without the permission of the Airport Director".

The question is whether a PPC may offer an (enforceable) civil contract to do that which is a criminal offence. Having reviewed a briefing at: http://www.inhouselawyer.co.uk/legal-brief...y-in-contracts/, my own (unqualified) view is that such a contract is void for illegality.


+1

nomerous threads on here dissecting byelaws PPCs, most notably from anon45


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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johnandmon
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 11:20
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Thanks folks.

Is the consensus of advice to

a) communicate to PPC a defence based on the LJLA Byelaws argument of criminal/civil
b) ignore as they are unlikely to proceed to court and will eventually go away



z) pay £100


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John
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 12:06
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a) You tell them to substantiate how they can claim from th keeper in an area controlled by byelaws that absolutely do apply, and how will they gte a mag court to hear their claim when "no stopping" doesnt contravene any byelaw?
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johnandmon
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 12:28
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 12:06) *
a) You tell them to substantiate how they can claim from the keeper in an area controlled by byelaws that absolutely do apply, and how will they get a mag court to hear their claim when "no stopping" doesn't contravene any byelaw?


Thank You.

I am I correct to use their online 'appeal' form to convey these points?


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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 14:19
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If you ha ve not appealed yet, then of course
Just take screensots and watch out for sneaky drop down boxes that default to "Im the driver"
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johnandmon
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 17:31
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 14:19) *
If you have not appealed yet, then of course
Just take screenshots and watch out for sneaky drop down boxes that default to "Im the driver"



Thanks again,

I have accessed the appeal section but NONE of the 'reason' options available allow for the case I want to make, there is no 'other' option?

I have attached pdf screenshot of the available options for this compulsory field.
Attached File(s)
Attached File  VCS.pdf ( 105.62K ) Number of downloads: 27
 


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Spudandros
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 17:45
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QUOTE (anon45 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 23:00) *
Reviewing the airport byelaws at: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1986...e_passthrough=1, it is a criminal offence under byelaw 5(iii)(a) to "drive, park or leave a vehicle elsewhere than in a place provided for that purpose without the permission of the Airport Director".

The question is whether a PPC may offer an (enforceable) civil contract to do that which is a criminal offence. Having reviewed a briefing at: http://www.inhouselawyer.co.uk/legal-brief...y-in-contracts/, my own (unqualified) view is that such a contract is void for illegality.


The problem is that in the two cases heard, the judges ruled bylaws applied to the old site (Speke) and not the current location. Which begs the obvious question, how is airside managed, then.
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johnandmon
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 21:12
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I am stalled at the moment unsure as to how to move forward. How to complete the appeal form where a relevant options does not exist. Do the byelaws apply at Liverpool Airport now or only when it was Speke? Do the Bye-Laws render the PCN void? If 2 courts have found in favour of VCS is there any point challenging?



In the meantime, having read through the FAQ's at Liverpool Airport I stumbled across the following (the only mention of the red-zone throughout the site - other than a map of car parking):

"What is a Red Route No Stopping Zone? A ‘Red Route’ no stopping zone is in operation at Liverpool John Lennon Airport to ensure the safety and security of everyone visiting the airport. Don’t worry, you’ll know if you’re in the Red Route now stopping zone as it is clearly marked on the carriageways, there are over 80 high profile signs, which advise drivers that they are entering a Restricted Zone and there is ‘No Stopping at Any Time’. Remember this is for everyone’s safety and security. Anyone who chooses to disregard the No Stopping zone and does stop on the Red Route will be subject to a penalty charge notice, as detailed on the signs."

Is the term 'penalty charge notice' (I understand these are enforcement agency issued) of significance or relevance here, given that it is the Airports warning of the consequence whereas the VCS website uses the terms 'Charge Notice' and 'Parking Charge Notice' at numerous points.

Furthermore - VCS say this in their Privacy Policy:
"We may collect and use the data for a number of reasons and purposes as outlined below:

Statistical Analysis
We use anonymised registration details (i.e. No Keeper Information obtained) to be able to map or profile the use of a specific car park or site. The statistics collected tell us how the car park is used, what the profile of traffic flow is, and how customers choose to pay for their parking.

Access Control
We use registration details, which may include vehicle keeper, hirer and driver details to ensure that only authorised vehicles which are registered with either ourselves or our Clients are permitted access to the car park/site.

Parking Management
We use the information collected to ensure compliance and be able to identify the liable party responsible and obtain a settlement when a parking contravention occurs and the Car Park/Site Terms and Conditions have been breached, resulting in a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) being issued.

Security & Crime Prevention/Detection
We use the information collected to ensure the security of the car park/site we operate and may be required to use the information to assist the Police or Other UK Statutory Enforcement Agencies in their enquiries or investigations."



Here is the thing. Neither the Car Parking T's & C's nor those of the airport use the word 'red', 'stop' or 'stopping' and neither set implies anything abut them. So no breaches of T's & C's has a occurred.

Am I labouring a merely moot point here or is there some significance to the lack of reference in the terms and conditions and VCS use of those terms and conditions as justification for handing out tickets for stopping ?

Feel free to add your thoughts

This post has been edited by johnandmon: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 21:40


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Sheffield Dave
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 22:30
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If the byelaws cover the area where your car stopped, this just means that they can't invoke POFA to claim against the keeper, only against the driver. But this is not terribly important because VCS never attempt FOFA compliance anyway. They will claim against you on the "reasonable assumption" that you were the driver or the driver was acting as your agent. I don;'t think the argument will fly that byelaws in place preclude suing for breach of a civil contract.

What is on their web site is mostly irrelevant: it's the signs on the day that forms any contract that the driver may have entered into; unless the driver can argue that they saw something on the website prior to their visit which offered them something better than the signs.

There are a lot of unresolved issues about the legality of the LJLA stopping arrangements, and we are not aware of anyone who has progressed as far as a court hearing where such issues might have been fully argued. You might win, you might get trounced: it's mostly untested, although there has been appeal case at the nearby business park which decided that "no stopping" signs could form a contract. .

Keep in mind that it is highly unlikely that VCS will accept any appeal you write, and highly likely that they will raise a court claim against you. So you need to decide whether you are prepared for the hassle of fighting this, and the possible £200-£250 cost if you lose.

The content of your initial appeal to VCS doesn't really matter, apart from (a) not making any unwise admissions (such as the identity of the driver) and (b) to show to any judge that you've been behaving reasonably.

More important at this stage is send VCS a SAR to get copies of any personal data (including photos) they have associated with you, your car, and the PCN. This will if nothing else let you know whether they have any photos which identify the driver.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 09:38
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It doesnt matter what option you pick.. Just write a single line stating that none f their reasons matched, so the drop down choice picked is irrelevant .
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johnandmon
post Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 16:16
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QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 22:30) *
Keep in mind that it is highly unlikely that VCS will accept any appeal you write, and highly likely that they will raise a court claim against you. So you need to decide whether you are prepared for the hassle of fighting this, and the possible £200-£250 cost if you lose.



And for that reason I think its all over.

I'm out of work at the moment and cannot afford the £100 let alone the possible charges if a court case beckoned for me as the RK.

You guys have helped my family win twice before. I do appreciate and value your collective help and will always recommend Pepipoo to friends and family caught in the PCN trap.


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John
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hexaflexagon
post Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 19:48
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Others more knowledgeable will no doubt respond to this particular point but other than the £100 there's nothing to lose until and unless it ever gets to the issue of court papers. When you get a letter before claim from solicitors then that would be the time to back out and pay them the £100.
Even if they've pestered you with debt collectors letters - which you will have rejected with a simple "The debt is denied" I doubt they'll go to court for the debt collection costs alone if you pay the £100.

There's no need to get involved with the standard VCS form just write your own letter. They call it an appeal but I think there's a subtle difference here. You should be REJECTING their PCN not appealing it. Appealing it suggests you are accepting there's a case to answer. Such small points could be important if it were ever to come before a judge.

Nothing you say to them will stop them continuing with their attempts to get you to pay. Your object is to convince them you're not going to be a pushover so that they decide to spend their energy going for lower hanging fruit.

The webster1 case here contains a lot of good arguments and discussion which you could usefully swot up on. The end process of that thread was that an excellent defence was put togther by a barrister and is available for the first LJLA case that ever comes to court. In the end it wasn't used because webster1 was messed about by the court process and after turning up for the hearing it was adjourned fo another date and webster1 just couldn't face all the trauma of another day in court.

It's up to you.
Spending time on a detailed and well argued rejection might well mean that they don't go all the way. Some of us are 4+ years down the line with nothing further happening. This is a game of attrition.

This post has been edited by hexaflexagon: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 23:16
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