PCN 48J - is it worth appealing? |
PCN 48J - is it worth appealing? |
Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 17:24
Post
#1
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 27 May 2015 Member No.: 77,452 |
Hi, I received a PCN today in the post. It's a 48J stopped in a restricted area outside a school. I stopped in the middle of the road as there was a car coming out of the side road ahead of me to the right. While I was stopped in the middle of the road, my son spotted his friend walking down the pavement and decided to jump out of the car to walk with his friend. You can clearly see my son exiting the car in the 2nd photo online. is it worth me trying to appeal this PCN on the basis that a) I'm not actually parked or pulled in over the zigzags, I'm stopped in the road and b) the reason I stopped was to allow the car to come out of the side road ahead of me.
Once I've figured out how to reduce the size of the photo and upload it, I will do so! Thanks in advance for any advice.
Attached File(s)
PCN_photos.pdf ( 160.05K )
Number of downloads: 140
PCN_photos.pdf ( 160.05K ) Number of downloads: 125 |
|
|
Advertisement |
Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 17:24
Post
#
|
Advertise here! |
|
|
|
Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 17:37
Post
#2
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
We need to see all of the PCN and the video . If it were me I would make the argument that you were not in the restricted area, This does not always get a sympathetic view at adjudication, but the law is no stopping on the markings and you were not
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 17:45
Post
#3
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 27 May 2015 Member No.: 77,452 |
Thanks. I'm not sure I know how to upload everything but have given it a go with the letter first here. Hopefully it works!
Attached File(s)
PCN_letter_P1.pdf ( 413.86K )
Number of downloads: 84
PCN_letter_P2.pdf ( 537.85K ) Number of downloads: 56 |
|
|
Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:07
Post
#4
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 27 May 2015 Member No.: 77,452 |
I can't actually work out how to upload the video. Can anyone advise? The video clearly shows the traffic coming out of the road ahead from the right hand side and also clearly shows that I'm not stopped on the markings but stopped in the middle of the road with no wheels over the markings, but it also clearly shows my son jumping out of the car and running in to the pavement.
|
|
|
Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:13
Post
#5
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I can't actually work out how to upload the video. Can anyone advise? The video clearly shows the traffic coming out of the road ahead from the right hand side and also clearly shows that I'm not stopped on the markings but stopped in the middle of the road with no wheels over the markings, but it also clearly shows my son jumping out of the car and running in to the pavement. put it on youtube then link to here -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 18:23
Post
#6
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
You left the pcn and reg details in, so I have had a look. I cannot see a win on the stop being due to traffic emerging from the right , it looks more that you stopped so those cars took advantage
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 21:04
Post
#7
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You left the pcn and reg details in, so I have had a look. I cannot see a win on the stop being due to traffic emerging from the right , it looks more that you stopped so those cars took advantage Don't you think there's any mileage in the fact that the OP didn't stop on the markings, but instead stopped in the middle of the road? I was under the impression school markings do not extend to the middle of the road, unlike DYLs. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 21:53
Post
#8
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
You left the pcn and reg details in, so I have had a look. I cannot see a win on the stop being due to traffic emerging from the right , it looks more that you stopped so those cars took advantage Don't you think there's any mileage in the fact that the OP didn't stop on the markings, but instead stopped in the middle of the road? I was under the impression school markings do not extend to the middle of the road, unlike DYLs. I do, as I said in my first post in this thread. I'll draft reps tomorrow This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:01 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:50
Post
#9
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 27 May 2015 Member No.: 77,452 |
Thanks so much. Would be great to have some help with this
|
|
|
Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 17:27
Post
#10
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 27 May 2015 Member No.: 77,452 |
You left the pcn and reg details in, so I have had a look. I cannot see a win on the stop being due to traffic emerging from the right , it looks more that you stopped so those cars took advantage Don't you think there's any mileage in the fact that the OP didn't stop on the markings, but instead stopped in the middle of the road? I was under the impression school markings do not extend to the middle of the road, unlike DYLs. I do, as I said in my first post in this thread. I'll draft reps tomorrow Looking at the video do you think it's worth an appeal on the basis that I was stopped in the road and not on the markings? Has anyone ever been successful in this scenario? |
|
|
Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 17:42
Post
#11
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
You left the pcn and reg details in, so I have had a look. I cannot see a win on the stop being due to traffic emerging from the right , it looks more that you stopped so those cars took advantage Don't you think there's any mileage in the fact that the OP didn't stop on the markings, but instead stopped in the middle of the road? I was under the impression school markings do not extend to the middle of the road, unlike DYLs. I do, as I said in my first post in this thread. I'll draft reps tomorrow Looking at the video do you think it's worth an appeal on the basis that I was stopped in the road and not on the markings? Has anyone ever been successful in this scenario? Yes it has been successful 2170011082 The allegation on the PCN is that this vehicle 'stopped in a restricted area outside a school . . . . .. . when prohibited'. The sign indicating the prohibition states 'no stopping . . . . .. on entrance markings'. The appellant's case is in part that as her vehicle did not stop on entrance markings but in the middle of the road the prohibition as stated on the sign was not contravened. I accept on the council's online footage of the incident that the appellant's vehicle did not stop on markings. I agree with the council that the restricted area outside this school covers the whole width of the road including that part of the road that is not marked but this is not made clear on this sign. Although it is compliant it is not I find adequate to indicate the extent of the restricted area and I find for that reason that the contravention has not been proved. 2180063344 This is an appeal on the ground the contravention did not occur. I have considered all the evidence in this case, including the CCTV. Mr Ohiowele accepts parking in the location but not on the entrance markings. Having viewed the CCTV it is clear the vehicle is not on the entrance markings but beyond them. The enforcement authority state that this is included in the entrance markings. I do not agree with this proposition. There is no authority relied on by the enforcement authority to support this assertion. There is no doubt if the vehicle had been either side of the markings it would not be on them, it is then not possible for it to be on them when it is beyond them. The Highway Code stipulates 'on the entrance markings'. There is nothing to support the assertion made by the enforcement authority that the restriction continues beyond the scope of the markings themselves and extends to the area behind. If this were the intention the markings should continue or some other restriction ought to be in place. I am not satisfied the contravention occurred and therefore I allow this appeal. I will be drafting something later you can then decide This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 17:42 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 23:22
Post
#12
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
There was no failure to comply with a s36 traffic sign The yellow zig zag markings (1027.1) TSRGD 2016 schedule 7 part 4 item 10 are a s36 traffic sign by virtue of schedule 7 part 3(3)(b). As such a contravention can only occur if a vehicle fails to comply with the indication given by the sign. Part 6(3) says this [i]"3. Subject to paragraph 4, the road marking at item 10, when placed in conjunction with an upright sign which includes the symbol at item 12, conveys the prohibition that, subject to the exceptions in paragraph 5, a person driving a vehicle must not cause it to stop on that marking— [/i] As is clear from the video and the stills taken from it, I did not stop on the markings, did not contravene the s36 markings. A contravention can only occur if a sign is present, that one is, is not disputed It carries the no stopping roundel as required and the words no stopping on entrance marking along with the times of the restriction.. Again, I did not stop on the markings so did not breach the instruction given by the sign Regards etc This can be tidied up and strengthened for appeal dependent on the response That's a bit rough and ready but you do not do their job for them. they have it in their head that the whole of the road is restricted, Some adjudicators have agreed, but not when the council use the London local authorities act. Its a gamble, but one where you are getting pretty good odds -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 00:17
Post
#13
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 10 Nov 2018 Member No.: 100,869 |
Is there also the case that the stopping was in the usual course of driving, e.g. Highway code Rule 151:
"In slow-moving traffic. You should ... allow access into and from side roads, as blocking these will add to congestion" That the passenger chose to exit the car can hardly be the fault of the driver. A similar situation might occur if a passenger opens the door at traffic lights. |
|
|
Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 00:21
Post
#14
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Is there also the case that the stopping was in the usual course of driving, e.g. Highway code Rule 151: "In slow-moving traffic. You should ... allow access into and from side roads, as blocking these will add to congestion" That the passenger chose to exit the car can hardly be the fault of the driver. A similar situation might occur if a passenger opens the door at traffic lights. Not one I would make having seen the video. It would impact credibility -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 00:35
Post
#15
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 27 May 2015 Member No.: 77,452 |
Thank you so much, much appreciated. I will appeal and let you know how I get on.
|
|
|
Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 22:51
Post
#16
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 27 May 2015 Member No.: 77,452 |
Hi again
I was away for a couple of weeks over Christmas/New Year and had a response from LB Barnet waiting for me on my return. I've just noticed the date on it and that I only have a day to respond to meet their 28 day deadline, so would appreciate some urgent advice. They have rejected my appeal on the basis that I was stopped in front of the markings. Quote: "You have stated in your representation that you had not come to a stop on the yellow School Keep Clear markings. However, I can confirm that upon review of the CCTV footage, we can confirm that you had in fact stopped in front of these markings which is still deemed to be part of the restricted area." I'm attaching a copy of their letter. They're acknowledging that I didn't stop ON the markings but that I stopped in the road alongside the markings. Do I have a case or should I just pay the fine before they double it? Thanks Dee |
|
|
Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 23:04
Post
#17
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
They're acknowledging that I didn't stop ON the markings but that I stopped in the road alongside the markings. Do I have a case or should I just pay the fine before they double it? The law on these markings is that you can't stop ON them, the council often don't understand the laws they seek to enforce. I would fight on. This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 23:04 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 23:09
Post
#18
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 27 May 2015 Member No.: 77,452 |
They're acknowledging that I didn't stop ON the markings but that I stopped in the road alongside the markings. Do I have a case or should I just pay the fine before they double it? The law on these markings is that you can't stop ON them, the council often don't understand the laws they seek to enforce. I would fight on. Thanks for your response. That's what I'm wondering. I was stopped alongside the markings but no part of my car or wheels was parked ON the markings. Their letter states that I had stopped in front of the markings and claim it is still deemed to be part of the restricted area. But is this true? I've been googling for hours trying to find this stated somewhere but everything I've read talks about parking ON them. If I fight on and appeal further, should I re-state my argument that I wasn't parked on the markings? Does anyone have experience of this who could help me word the appeal? I'm conscious that my 28 days are up tomorrow so need to do this ASAP. |
|
|
Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 23:16
Post
#19
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
That's what I'm wondering. I was stopped alongside the markings but no part of my car or wheels was parked ON the markings. Their letter states that I had stopped in front of the markings and claim it is still deemed to be part of the restricted area. But is this true? I've been googling for hours trying to find this stated somewhere but everything I've read talks about parking ON them. The only reliable source of law is legislation.gov.uk (unless you have a fancy westlaw subscription), google is unlikely to be helpful in these circumstances. In this instance, see here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made and in particular paragraph 2.2 of Part 6 (my emphasis): Subject to paragraph 4, the road marking at item 10, when placed in conjunction with an upright sign which includes the symbol at item 12, conveys the prohibition that, subject to the exceptions in paragraph 5, a person driving a vehicle must not cause it to stop on that marking— (a)if the sign placed in conjunction with the marking does not show a time period, at any time; or (b)if the sign shows a time period, during that period. The diagram itself is at item 10 of Part 4. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 10:49
Post
#20
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 27 May 2015 Member No.: 77,452 |
That's what I'm wondering. I was stopped alongside the markings but no part of my car or wheels was parked ON the markings. Their letter states that I had stopped in front of the markings and claim it is still deemed to be part of the restricted area. But is this true? I've been googling for hours trying to find this stated somewhere but everything I've read talks about parking ON them. The only reliable source of law is legislation.gov.uk (unless you have a fancy westlaw subscription), google is unlikely to be helpful in these circumstances. In this instance, see here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made and in particular paragraph 2.2 of Part 6 (my emphasis): Subject to paragraph 4, the road marking at item 10, when placed in conjunction with an upright sign which includes the symbol at item 12, conveys the prohibition that, subject to the exceptions in paragraph 5, a person driving a vehicle must not cause it to stop on that marking— (a)if the sign placed in conjunction with the marking does not show a time period, at any time; or (b)if the sign shows a time period, during that period. The diagram itself is at item 10 of Part 4. Thanks for this, I would never have found that without you! I still think it doesn't mention the road beyond the markings. What's your opinion? I'm happy to appeal further but don't want to do so if there's a rule out there somewhere that states I shouldn't park beyond the markings in the road. What I do know for certain is that none of my car was parked ON the markings, but is that enough? |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 14:30 |