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BBC drama on suicide partly blamed on PCN debts, Article in Guardian
stamfordman
post Sat, 26 May 2018 - 13:58
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It is believable that something like this could push someone over the edge but it cannot be taken in isolation.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/may/...e-jerome-rogers

Courier Jerome Rogers killed himself after his bike was seized. A BBC drama tells his story and examines wider issues about debt

It started with two £65 traffic fines, one for being in a bus lane a few minutes before the restrictions ended, the other for making a prohibited right turn. Within a matter of months, those two penalties had spiralled into a debt of more than £1,000 – and then the bailiffs swooped, clamping the motorbike that was essential to Jerome Rogers’ work as a courier delivering blood and other medical items to hospitals.

It ended with the 20-year-old taking his own life.

The case prompted calls for tougher regulation of the debt-collection industry, and is now the basis of a one-hour factual drama for BBC Three available from Tuesday (29 May) on BBC iPlayer.
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post Sat, 26 May 2018 - 13:58
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southpaw82
post Sat, 26 May 2018 - 14:45
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Tougher regulation? If the debt was lawfully owed and not paid what else is meant to happen?


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The Rookie
post Sat, 26 May 2018 - 18:38
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I’m not sure what tougher regulation is needed here, he chose not to pay the penalties, he chose not to pay once enforcement started, do we just let everyone off in case they decide (1 in 100,000 at most) to do something drastic? Or do we decide the guilty should be punished?

The fees were allowed to escalate, no HE escalated them by inserting head in sand.

As for tools of the trade? Essential for work applies to most people, so?


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DancingDad
post Sat, 26 May 2018 - 19:31
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According to National Statistics, males in age range 20-24 have a suicide rate of 14.8/100K of population.
Seems a little extreme to focus on one of them, the purported cause of which would seem to be self inflicted.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 11:03
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Here's an earlier article.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/...all-for-reforms

I think there is a good point that the debt collection industry rarely stops to assess the vulnerability of its targets. At the end of the day we're talking about a couple of PCNs. There are parallels with the increase in suicides and distress owing to government welfare 'reforms'.
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ViroBono
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 11:45
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 12:03) *
Here's an earlier article.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/apr/...all-for-reforms

I think there is a good point that the debt collection industry rarely stops to assess the vulnerability of its targets. At the end of the day we're talking about a couple of PCNs. There are parallels with the increase in suicides and distress owing to government welfare 'reforms'.


The debt collection industry, despite significantly increased regulation, remains an unsavoury business. Amongst the causes of continued poor behaviour are a reliance on commission-based pay amongst debt collectors, and the way debts are bought and sold.

Although there has been a small increase in the number of suicides since 2007, the figures are still lower than they were in the 80s. There is a link between socio-economic disadvantage and suicidal behaviours, which includes austerity, but it’s about a good deal more than that. Debt is a significant risk factor for suicidal behaviour across society, but there are many others.

In this case the Coroner seems to have found, as fact, that the debt was one of “several stressors” involved. She suggested that although the bailiff acted within the law, some of his behaviour could have been perceived as intimidating.

In my view there is a valid case to look at whether there’s a need for bailiffs in this age other than in recovering money from businesses. Northern Ireland has managed perfectly well without them for years.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 17:41
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The trouble is if you provide an easy out solution then no-one will ever pay and you are back to square one.

NI may not have bailiffs but they do have the equivalent in the EJO, so rather disingenuous to state it as some sort of solution.


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southpaw82
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 17:49
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QUOTE (ViroBono @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 12:45) *
In my view there is a valid case to look at whether there’s a need for bailiffs in this age other than in recovering money from businesses. Northern Ireland has managed perfectly well without them for years.

How are debts collected from individuals in NI?


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ViroBono
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 18:58
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (ViroBono @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 12:45) *
In my view there is a valid case to look at whether there’s a need for bailiffs in this age other than in recovering money from businesses. Northern Ireland has managed perfectly well without them for years.

How are debts collected from individuals in NI?


By the Enforcement of Judgments Office. EJO staff have powers broadly similar to bailiffs, but are salaried government employees. They operate differently in that they ask debtors to meet at their offices, and have a range of powers, rather than turning up and threatening to remove possessions from the outset. Ultimately, not complying with the EJO can result in arrest though, so though they speak softly they do have a big stick!

In practice I’ve seen them in action when I lived in NI, and I think that they are sufficiently different to bailiffs to be a better, more civilised, method of enforcement.

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southpaw82
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 19:16
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QUOTE (ViroBono @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 19:58) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (ViroBono @ Sun, 27 May 2018 - 12:45) *
In my view there is a valid case to look at whether there’s a need for bailiffs in this age other than in recovering money from businesses. Northern Ireland has managed perfectly well without them for years.

How are debts collected from individuals in NI?


By the Enforcement of Judgments Office. EJO staff have powers broadly similar to bailiffs, but are salaried government employees. They operate differently in that they ask debtors to meet at their offices, and have a range of powers, rather than turning up and threatening to remove possessions from the outset. Ultimately, not complying with the EJO can result in arrest though, so though they speak softly they do have a big stick!

In practice I’ve seen them in action when I lived in NI, and I think that they are sufficiently different to bailiffs to be a better, more civilised, method of enforcement.

Very similar to the system I’m used to. I agree it ought to be administered by agents of the state, rather than private individuals loosely licensed by the state.


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cp8759
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 00:11
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 26 May 2018 - 14:58) *
The case prompted calls for tougher regulation of the debt-collection industry, and is now the basis of a one-hour factual drama for BBC Three available from Tuesday (29 May) on BBC iPlayer.

Tragic as this case may be, and as sorry as I may feel for the family, having watched the drama I cannot say that this was anything other than self-inflicted. The BBC drama gave the distinct impression that if he'd simply paid within the discount window, there never would have been a problem.


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roythebus
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 08:35
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I suspect that in the UK if debt collection were to be administered by the state it would ssson be privatised under the current regime. After all, they've privatised everything else.

But then maybe the UK is way over the top on issuing fines for every misdemeanour? Parking? Fine. Go in a bus lane? Fine. Drop a dog end? Fine. It seems to be a national fetish to fine everybody for everything. Overstay in a supermarket car park? Fine (by another name). Late filing your tax return? fine.

A lot of people, myself included, find it difficult to deal with this sort of officialdom. It is the constant worrying of "oh will I get a fine if I stop here for a minute to drop somebody off", "will I get a fine if i overstay in the car park a few minutes". I travel a lot cross Europe and nowhere else seems to have this obsession with fining people and chasing them to the ends of the earth for payment.

The only time I've been finied abroad was for speeding in a German town, a fair cop by the police with a speed gun, a 40km limit, I was doing 50km. That will be normally 160euro, if you pay us now by card it is 35 euro. No bullying, here's the 35euro, no more worries. It may be the "camera culture" here of fining everyone by remote control that causes it. Getting caught by a person seems to have a different ring about it.

I hate to think how much this country stings people in fines in the course of a year, it must be enough to finance the NHS for a long time. Where does the fine money go to?

This post has been edited by roythebus: Wed, 30 May 2018 - 08:36
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ViroBono
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 14:17
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 01:11) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 26 May 2018 - 14:58) *
The case prompted calls for tougher regulation of the debt-collection industry, and is now the basis of a one-hour factual drama for BBC Three available from Tuesday (29 May) on BBC iPlayer.

Tragic as this case may be, and as sorry as I may feel for the family, having watched the drama I cannot say that this was anything other than self-inflicted. The BBC drama gave the distinct impression that if he'd simply paid within the discount window, there never would have been a problem.



Perhaps the reality was not quite dramatic enough for the BBC?
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cp8759
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 15:28
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 09:35) *
But then maybe the UK is way over the top on issuing fines for every misdemeanour? Parking? Fine. Go in a bus lane? Fine. Drop a dog end? Fine. It seems to be a national fetish to fine everybody for everything. Overstay in a supermarket car park? Fine (by another name). Late filing your tax return? fine.

By not littering, not parking illegally, and only driving in bus lanes outside of their hours of operation, I seem to manage avoiding all these fines. On the other hand, the verge between my house and my post office is constantly covered in (mostly recyclable) litter. If the council were to install cameras and start issuing littering PCNs I'd be all for it.

QUOTE (roythebus @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 09:35) *
A lot of people, myself included, find it difficult to deal with this sort of officialdom. It is the constant worrying of "oh will I get a fine if I stop here for a minute to drop somebody off", "will I get a fine if i overstay in the car park a few minutes".

The Highway Code has a reasonably accurate explanation of the boarding / alighting exemptions, and you can overstay in a car park by 10 minutes. You might find that knowing the rules means you have nothing to worry about at all.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 15:35
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Having listened to an interview with the producer on radio5 on Sunday, this seems more an issue that the man concerned was in the ‘gig economy’ and on a pittance and hence unable to afford the PCN’s than it was an issue with the PCN and recovery itself.

On BBC iPlayer as “killed by my debt”

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 30 May 2018 - 15:35


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cp8759
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 15:53
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 16:35) *
Having listened to an interview with the producer on radio5 on Sunday, this seems more an issue that the man concerned was in the ‘gig economy’ and on a pittance and hence unable to afford the PCN’s than it was an issue with the PCN and recovery itself.

From the figures given in the show, while I accept it would have been a struggle, he could have paid the discounted penalties even on the pittance he was earning.


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Incandescent
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 16:25
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Pity this poor chap didn't know about our Decrim. penalties forum. I'm sure he'd have got some good advice and maybe even managed seccessful appeal too ! It would seem he had nobody else to turn to for advice.
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cp8759
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 18:13
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 17:25) *
Pity this poor chap didn't know about our Decrim. penalties forum. I'm sure he'd have got some good advice and maybe even managed seccessful appeal too ! It would seem he had nobody else to turn to for advice.

It's never going to happen but imagine if we persuaded Parliament to make a reference to this forum a mandatory requirement on all PCNs...


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666
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 18:43
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 09:35) *
I hate to think how much this country stings people in fines in the course of a year, it must be enough to finance the NHS for a long time. Where does the fine money go to?


Most of it goes to the Treasury, but it wouldn't finance the NHS for a day.

The annual income from fines etc., is about £1 billion, with a surplus after costs, of about £50 million https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go..._WEB_140717.pdf

NHS budget in 2017-8 was £124.7 billion.
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ViroBono
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 23:05
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 09:35) *
The only time I've been finied abroad was for speeding in a German town, a fair cop by the police with a speed gun, a 40km limit, I was doing 50km. That will be normally 160euro, if you pay us now by card it is 35 euro. No bullying, here's the 35euro, no more worries. It may be the "camera culture" here of fining everyone by remote control that causes it. Getting caught by a person seems to have a different ring about it.


I lived in Germany, and have been fined for speeding there too, by a very polite policeman. I was also fined for parking with my car's bumper 4cm over a line, though it was cancelled on appeal.

In Germany every supermarket car park has a sign stating that the traffic laws apply there, so you can be fined (not by a PPC) if you breach them. You can also be fined for washing your car other than at an approved 'Waschplatz'; for hanging out your washing, or mowing the lawn, or doing DIY, on a Sunday; for putting the wrong things in your bin; for running out of fuel on the Autobahn; for not indicating before turning, for not having an in-date first aid kit in your car, for not carrying out first aid at an accident; for not paying church tax, for not giving way to an emergency vehicle, and many, many other things.

I liked living there, and did not find the laws onerous at all; they are generally entirely sensible, and based upon consideration for others. Germans will happily dob you in if you break the rules - they don't need cameras!




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