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national parking enforcement ltd, 2 fatal flaws?
JBL
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 10:13
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It looks to me that this ticket cannot be pursued for at least two reasons, 1. the driver only stayed for 4 minutes. 2, they do not know the name of the driver and the owner is under no obligation to tell them.
Can you wise people confirm my assumption and can you point me to a suitable letter to send them

TIA

JBL
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post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 10:13
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Jlc
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 10:59
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Yup, no keeper liability.

In terms of 4 minutes it’s not so clear cut - but definitely arguable that a contract could not be formed in that time - the driver did not accept the terms and left. (One presumes it’s a no parking at all condition - possibly forbidding anyway)

However, they will still reject any appeal and will pursue the keeper on the ‘reasonable’ basis they were driving.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 11:01


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 11:00
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Assumption totally wrong.

If parking isn't permitted at all then there is no grace period, 4 minutes is more than long enough to work out it wasn't permitted I'd suggest.

If they have met the requirements of PoFA they can hold the keeper liable, no need to find the driver.

So is the notice PoFA compliant, was the signage conspicuous enough and did it clearly create a contract.

The owner is a total irrelevance in the matter as they have no liability and NPE have no way of finding out who they are, the DVLA keep only a register of keepers.

I guess you're about 10 years behind the curve.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Jlc
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 11:00
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Check recent threads for ostell’s template for lack of POFA compliance.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Broadsman
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 17:37
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 10:59) *
However, they will still reject any appeal and will pursue the keeper on the ‘reasonable’ basis they were driving.


OR you will hear nothing until the "debt collectors" letters start. (They seem to have stopped after 4 months of them wasting their paper and not getting a response).
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ostell
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 20:34
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If the warning is not on the back then:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc

First class post with free certificate of posting from a post office
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JBL
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 08:56
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Thanks for the replies. The relevant notice re POFA is on the reverse of the letter. Any further ideas?
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The Slithy Tove
post Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 11:35
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QUOTE (JBL @ Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 08:56) *
Thanks for the replies. The relevant notice re POFA is on the reverse of the letter. Any further ideas?

Show us the reverse of the notice, so we can make sure. It could be argued that the reason for issuing the charge hasn't been adequately specified. I.e. which term or condition was broken.

Why was such a short stay a contravention of Ts & Cs? You haven't said why. What exactly does the signage say?

This post has been edited by The Slithy Tove: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 11:37
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JBL
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 17:27
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Thanks for the replies all. It looks as though they might have me unless anyone can see any faults. I don't have photos of the signs, the driver says it is an area at the rear of shops and you cant see the signs until you drive in. It could be said that when they saw the signs they drove out again. The signs do say no parking. It is an area they have parked in many times, the cameras are new.


This post has been edited by JBL: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 17:30
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The Rookie
post Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 18:22
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Edit post NOW, NEVER give away driver ID, no I, we they, he or even the dog.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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JBL
post Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 17:31
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 19:22) *
Edit post NOW, NEVER give away driver ID, no I, we they, he or even the dog.


Done
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JBL
post Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 13:36
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Hi all, can you please cast an eye over the proposed letter for your comments.

TIA

Dear sirs, re your ref ****** the driver did not park as you alleged. Your signs cannot and were not seen until after entering, as soon as they were seen the driver left. Therefore no contract was entered into. I will not be paying your invoice and I do not expect to hear from you or your agents save to inform me that the invoice has been cancelled.
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JBL
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 17:47
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Bump
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 11:28
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Did the driver see them and then immediately leave? You have proposed that might be the case, then state it as fact here.
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JBL
post Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 11:58
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 11:28) *
Did the driver see them and then immediately leave? You have proposed that might be the case, then state it as fact here.


Yes, Isaid the signs cannot and were not seen and driver left as soon as possible.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 13:43
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post 9 and post 12 differ in their account
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JBL
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 12:40
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Hi all,
Received the expected rejection. They obviously didn't take the issue into account as the driver was only on site 4 minuets, Is it worth appealing to IAS as from what I've read its almost the same as appealing to the parking company.

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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 13:09
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No, sit tight and IGNORE debt collectors, come back when / if you get a LBC OR a court claim form. NEITHER of those can be ignored.
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JBL
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 13:47
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Thanks smile.gif
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JBL
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 12:18
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Well the first of the debt collector letters which I shall ignore. Any ideas how many of these I should expect? Do they do court?

TIA

https://imgur.com/SABK9dL
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