national parking enforcement ltd, 2 fatal flaws? |
national parking enforcement ltd, 2 fatal flaws? |
Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 10:13
Post
#1
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 389 Joined: 3 Oct 2006 Member No.: 8,035 |
It looks to me that this ticket cannot be pursued for at least two reasons, 1. the driver only stayed for 4 minutes. 2, they do not know the name of the driver and the owner is under no obligation to tell them. Can you wise people confirm my assumption and can you point me to a suitable letter to send them TIA JBL |
|
|
Advertisement |
Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 10:13
Post
#
|
Advertise here! |
|
|
|
Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 10:59
Post
#2
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Yup, no keeper liability.
In terms of 4 minutes it’s not so clear cut - but definitely arguable that a contract could not be formed in that time - the driver did not accept the terms and left. (One presumes it’s a no parking at all condition - possibly forbidding anyway) However, they will still reject any appeal and will pursue the keeper on the ‘reasonable’ basis they were driving. This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 11:01 -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
|
|
Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 11:00
Post
#3
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Assumption totally wrong.
If parking isn't permitted at all then there is no grace period, 4 minutes is more than long enough to work out it wasn't permitted I'd suggest. If they have met the requirements of PoFA they can hold the keeper liable, no need to find the driver. So is the notice PoFA compliant, was the signage conspicuous enough and did it clearly create a contract. The owner is a total irrelevance in the matter as they have no liability and NPE have no way of finding out who they are, the DVLA keep only a register of keepers. I guess you're about 10 years behind the curve. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
|
|
Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 11:00
Post
#4
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Check recent threads for ostell’s template for lack of POFA compliance.
-------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
|
|
Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 17:37
Post
#5
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 1,013 Joined: 17 Oct 2012 Member No.: 57,735 |
However, they will still reject any appeal and will pursue the keeper on the ‘reasonable’ basis they were driving. OR you will hear nothing until the "debt collectors" letters start. (They seem to have stopped after 4 months of them wasting their paper and not getting a response). |
|
|
Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 20:34
Post
#6
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
If the warning is not on the back then:
Dear Sirs, I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper. There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records. Yours etc First class post with free certificate of posting from a post office |
|
|
Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 08:56
Post
#7
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 389 Joined: 3 Oct 2006 Member No.: 8,035 |
Thanks for the replies. The relevant notice re POFA is on the reverse of the letter. Any further ideas?
|
|
|
Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 11:35
Post
#8
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 3,283 Joined: 5 Jan 2012 Member No.: 52,178 |
Thanks for the replies. The relevant notice re POFA is on the reverse of the letter. Any further ideas? Show us the reverse of the notice, so we can make sure. It could be argued that the reason for issuing the charge hasn't been adequately specified. I.e. which term or condition was broken. Why was such a short stay a contravention of Ts & Cs? You haven't said why. What exactly does the signage say? This post has been edited by The Slithy Tove: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 - 11:37 |
|
|
Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 17:27
Post
#9
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 389 Joined: 3 Oct 2006 Member No.: 8,035 |
Thanks for the replies all. It looks as though they might have me unless anyone can see any faults. I don't have photos of the signs, the driver says it is an area at the rear of shops and you cant see the signs until you drive in. It could be said that when they saw the signs they drove out again. The signs do say no parking. It is an area they have parked in many times, the cameras are new.
This post has been edited by JBL: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 17:30 |
|
|
Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 18:22
Post
#10
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Edit post NOW, NEVER give away driver ID, no I, we they, he or even the dog.
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
|
|
Fri, 13 Dec 2019 - 17:31
Post
#11
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 389 Joined: 3 Oct 2006 Member No.: 8,035 |
|
|
|
Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 13:36
Post
#12
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 389 Joined: 3 Oct 2006 Member No.: 8,035 |
Hi all, can you please cast an eye over the proposed letter for your comments.
TIA Dear sirs, re your ref ****** the driver did not park as you alleged. Your signs cannot and were not seen until after entering, as soon as they were seen the driver left. Therefore no contract was entered into. I will not be paying your invoice and I do not expect to hear from you or your agents save to inform me that the invoice has been cancelled. |
|
|
Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 17:47
Post
#13
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 389 Joined: 3 Oct 2006 Member No.: 8,035 |
Bump
|
|
|
Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 11:28
Post
#14
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Did the driver see them and then immediately leave? You have proposed that might be the case, then state it as fact here.
|
|
|
Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 11:58
Post
#15
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 389 Joined: 3 Oct 2006 Member No.: 8,035 |
|
|
|
Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 13:43
Post
#16
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
post 9 and post 12 differ in their account
|
|
|
Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 12:40
Post
#17
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 389 Joined: 3 Oct 2006 Member No.: 8,035 |
Hi all,
Received the expected rejection. They obviously didn't take the issue into account as the driver was only on site 4 minuets, Is it worth appealing to IAS as from what I've read its almost the same as appealing to the parking company. |
|
|
Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 13:09
Post
#18
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
No, sit tight and IGNORE debt collectors, come back when / if you get a LBC OR a court claim form. NEITHER of those can be ignored.
|
|
|
Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 13:47
Post
#19
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 389 Joined: 3 Oct 2006 Member No.: 8,035 |
Thanks
|
|
|
Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 12:18
Post
#20
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 389 Joined: 3 Oct 2006 Member No.: 8,035 |
Well the first of the debt collector letters which I shall ignore. Any ideas how many of these I should expect? Do they do court?
TIA https://imgur.com/SABK9dL |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 06:15 |