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PCN Bus Lane - Notice of Enforcement
Lours
post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 13:55
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Hi, I got a £60 penalty charge for driving in the bus lane on a bank holiday (London Borough of Bromley). I appealed but did not get a rejection letter.

I then receive an Order for Recovery letter for £203.

I filed a statutory declaration (PE3) form and had it sworn and stamped at the local county court stating no rejection notice had been received. Same day, I send the scanned/completed PE3 form over to the email address they provided on the Order for Recovery (customerservice.tec@hmcourts-service.gsi.gov.uk).

Today I received a Notice of Enforcement letter from Phoenix Commercial Collections demanding £278 or bailiffs are coming.

Please note, I sent another email today asking what's going on and got the following delivery failure notice:
QUOTE
Your message couldn't be delivered to customerservice.tec@hmcourts-service.gsi.gov.uk because the remote server is misconfigured.


I'm not sure what to do or who to contact at this point.

This post has been edited by Lours: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 13:56
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Neil B
post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 14:42
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It sounds like you've been caught out by the (daft) multi-stage process for London bus lanes.

Give us a full timeline of events and show us ALL notices received.

You haven't mentioned some?

So, most important, go and get your V5C and check the address on it.

QUOTE (Lours @ Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 13:55) *
the email address they provided on the Order for Recovery (customerservice.tec@hmcourts-service.gsi.gov.uk).

Need, particularly, to see that, as it's wrong.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Lours
post Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 15:11
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 15:42) *
Give us a full timeline of events and show us ALL notices received.

You haven't mentioned some?

So, most important, go and get your V5C and check the address on it.

QUOTE (Lours @ Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 13:55) *
the email address they provided on the Order for Recovery (customerservice.tec@hmcourts-service.gsi.gov.uk).

Need, particularly, to see that, as it's wrong.

Ok I'll get all the notices scanned and timeline for you. Thank you.
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Lours
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 10:30
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Here's the timeline of events.

  1. 03/09/18 Penalty Charge Notice
  2. 04/09/18 I challenged and made an online appeal.
  3. 15/02/19 Order For Recovery
  4. 05/03/19 I attend my appointment at Bromley County Court and have my PE3 form sworn that no rejection letter was received. I have the form scanned and sent to the email address provided exactly on the Order For Recovery.
  5. 03/04/19 Notice Of Enforcement
  6. 06/04/19 Confused.. I send another email to the same one provided on the Order for Recovery asking for help/update but Google Mail returns an error on the recipients side. It appears the email they provided does not work: https://civilservice.blog.gov.uk/2017/12/14...for-the-better/


All emails sent/inbox are still in my Google Mail account. I have the original PE3 form stamped by the county court stating no rejection-notice was received.
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Neil B
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 10:38
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 14:42) *
So, most important, go and get your V5C and check the address on it.


Meanwhile, your PE3 was a false statement - we'll explain later.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Lours
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 10:45
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 11:38) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 14:42) *
So, most important, go and get your V5C and check the address on it.


Meanwhile, your PE3 was a false statement - we'll explain later.

Ok I've checked the V5C and address is correct but doesn't show the county.
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Neil B
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 10:50
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QUOTE (Lours @ Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 10:45) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 11:38) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 6 Apr 2019 - 14:42) *
So, most important, go and get your V5C and check the address on it.


Ok I've checked the V5C and address is correct but doesn't show the county.

Postcode there?

Point is, THREE notices have failed to arrive from the Council.

-Enforcement Notice
-Charge Certificate
and possibly any rejection to your challenge.



--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 11:01
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Ok - action.

Phone TEC first thing tomorrow >

-- Confirm your PE3 was not processed

-- Confirm the e-mail address Bromley gave you was wrong

-- Confirm tec@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk is correct.

-- Ask them if, in the circumstances they'll allow you to file PE3 'in time' (but it will need changing - as we'll explain)

I doubt they'll allow that but ask.
If 'no' ask them to e-mail you PE2 and PE3 forms.

------
I'll explain your error on PE3 when I get a mo but it will help if you show us the backs of OfR and PCN

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 11:07


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Lours
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 11:12
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 12:01) *
Ok - action.

Phone TEC first thing tomorrow >

-- Confirm your PE3 was not processed

-- Confirm the e-mail address Bromley gave you was wrong

-- Confirm tec@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk is correct.

-- Ask them if, in the circumstances they'll allow you to file PE3 'in time' (but it will need changing - as we'll explain)

I doubt they'll allow that but ask.
If 'no' ask them to e-mail you PE2 and PE3 forms.

------
I'll explain your error on PE3 when I get a mo but it will help if you show us the backs of OfR and PCN


Do you think they'll just say "it's out of our hand" and pass me to the Phoenix bailiffs?
What a nightmare, having public send replies/forms to a defunct email address.

This post has been edited by Lours: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 11:17
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Neil B
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 11:17
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0300 123 1059

01604 619450

Show us the other pages today please.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Lours
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 11:31
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 12:17) *
0300 123 1059

01604 619450

Show us the other pages today please.

Thanks,
PCN is blank.
Back of OfR:


This post has been edited by Lours: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 11:32
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Neil B
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 11:54
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So on the PE3 you ticked 'made reps against the PCN --'

but you hadn't. You had not received an Enforcement Notice, so you couldn't.

The "appeal" you made was just a challenge prior to the EN
and again it boils down to misleading or absent info on their PCN.

Their notices are woeful, so if we can get this reset we'll help try to cancel all.

The box you should have ticked on PE3 was 'did not receive EN'.

-----
Tomorrow I'm probably only around from mid afternoon.
If TEC say you need PE2 as well, DO NOT try to complete it without our help.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Lours
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 12:05
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 12:54) *
So on the PE3 you ticked 'made reps against the PCN --'

but you hadn't. You had not received an Enforcement Notice, so you couldn't.

The "appeal" you made was just a challenge prior to the EN
and again it boils down to misleading or absent info on their PCN.

Their notices are woeful, so if we can get this reset we'll help try to cancel all.

The box you should have ticked on PE3 was 'did not receive EN'.

-----
Tomorrow I'm probably only around from mid afternoon.
If TEC say you need PE2 as well, DO NOT try to complete it without our help.

Ok, I will read your post a few more times so I can fully comprehend. I will contact TEC tomorrow and update here. Hopefully they won't dismiss/refer my contact to the bailiffs.

Really appreciate your help.
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Neil B
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 12:15
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QUOTE (Lours @ Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 12:05) *
I will contact TEC tomorrow and update here. Hopefully they won't dismiss/refer my contact to the bailiffs.

I don't know where you've got such an idea. They won't dismiss you.

Just ask the questions I gave you and don't go off at discussion tangents, complicating it.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 15:45
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QUOTE (Lours @ Sun, 7 Apr 2019 - 12:05) *
I will read your post a few more times so I can fully comprehend.

It will help you if you understand quite quickly, so I'll help.

The legislation for London bus lanes is archaic, cumbersome and easily misunderstood.

So I fully understand that you think you had 'appealed' when you hadn't.
When a PCN is issued it's largely pointless for these. It acts like a parking PCN on the vehicle.
Legally you can't do anything other than pay or wait for the next notice.
Most councils will allow you to make an 'informal challenge' before the next notice.
That is what you did.

The next notice is the 'Enforcement Notice'. This acts like a Notice to Owner for parking.
It allows you to make 'Formal Representations' against the PCN --- but you didn't because
it seems you didn't receive the EN.

If the PCN isn't paid and council receive no formal reps they issue a Charge Certificate which, you
say you also didn't get ---

then the OfR which you did get.
That allowed you to make a Statutory Declaration, PE3.

Hopefully, you now understand what box you should have ticked.

Why so urgently important?
TEC haven't got your original PE3 so it's extremely unlikely you'll be in any trouble.
But IF they allow you to submit a new one in the circumstances, it's vital you tick the right box --
-- so you'll need a new one, newly sworn and witnessed.

If they don't and insist you need to also file a PE2 'out of time' request, then we'll deal with that and
explain it tomorrow.

----

Ask any questions you need to.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Apr 2019 - 12:15
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Any update?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Lours
post Mon, 8 Apr 2019 - 12:44
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I phoned and explained my situation and then received an email shortly after:
QUOTE
I am sorry to hear that you have not received all our previous correspondence.

I can inform you that the Traffic Enforcement Centre have recently changed their e-mail address to tec@justice.gov.uk

I am attaching an Out of Time Statutory Declaration. You should complete this under grounds 1 and return it to the Traffic Enforcement Centre. Full details are on the form.

Once the details have been verified by the Traffic Enforcement Centre, the case will be reverted to the original charge at which point a new Enforcement Notice will be sent to you. You may then either pay the Penalty Charge, or make representations against this case.

I confirm that I will hold action for 14 days from the date of this e-mail to allow you to complete and return the forms to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

Regards
xxxx , Debt Recovery Officer


Attached was a word document containing PE3 and PE2 forms and the following:
QUOTE
08 April 2019

Our ref: TEC/

Dear Sir,

Penalty Charge Number: xxxx ,

The Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) is a registration point for Local Authorities to register unpaid penalty charges with the County Court for enforcement. When a penalty charge is registered with the TEC, the Local Authority send out an Order for Recovery giving you 21 days to either make full payment or appeal against the Court Registration by filing a Statutory Declaration with the TEC.

Once this time limit expires you may still be able to file a Statutory Declaration, but you will have to submit an application to do so. An application to file a Statutory Declaration ‘Out of time’ has been enclosed.

On receipt of your application the TEC will:
• Notify the Local Authority concerned that an application has been received and processed. Upon receipt of this notification the Local Authority will suspend any enforcement action. A copy of your application will be sent to the Local Authority concerned by post.
• The Local Authority is given 19 working days to decide if they wish to accept or reject your application.
• If the Local Authority accepts your application within this time limit, the court registration will be revoked (cancelled). This does not cancel the original penalty charge. The matter will be referred back to the Local Authority.
• If the Local Authority rejects your application, the court file will be referred without a hearing to a Court Officer who will make an impartial decision. You will be notified of the result.
• If you wish to apply to set aside the Court Officer’s decision, a further fee will be involved.

Guidance notes on the completion of the Statutory Declaration and Application to file a Statutory Declaration ‘Out of Time’ have been enclosed for your reference. Should you have any further queries regarding these forms, please do not hesitate to contact our helpdesk via the number above. Alternately you may contact us via email using the details at the top of this letter. More details on our procedures can be found at the website detailed below.

Yours sincerely,


For the Traffic Enforcement Centre
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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Apr 2019 - 13:01
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QUOTE (Lours @ Mon, 8 Apr 2019 - 12:44) *
I am attaching an Out of Time Statutory Declaration. You should complete this under grounds 1 and return it to the Traffic Enforcement Centre. Full details are on the form.

Once the details have been verified by the Traffic Enforcement Centre, the case will be reverted to the original charge at which point a new Enforcement Notice will be sent to you. You may then either pay the Penalty Charge, or make representations against this case.

That's confusing.
As they explained in the standard blurb later, it isn't automatic; the council may object.
But it's a good sign; maybe they intend ignoring any council objection.

So,
Now we get going on the application -- and it has to be right.

The PE2 is a request to file the PE3 late and we must explain why you are late.

That's pretty straightforward in your case - advised the wrong address by Bromley.

You can try to draft something yourself and post it here for comment -- or I'll try find time later today.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Lours
post Mon, 8 Apr 2019 - 13:17
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Apr 2019 - 14:01) *
You can try to draft something yourself and post it here for comment

I will start now and post later. Thank you.
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Lours
post Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 10:39
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PE3 - I'm going to tick the box and state I "did not receive an Enforcement Notice."

PE2 - "Sent PE3 to the email address provided on the Order-for-Recovery but TEC have changed their e-mail address to tec@justice.gov.uk."

The only thing throwing me off is "You should complete this under grounds 1".

This post has been edited by Lours: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 10:42
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