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Hippocrates
Posted on: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 20:45


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QUOTE (atoma @ Mon, 26 Jun 2017 - 15:21) *
Howdy

Got nailed on a bus lane in London but honestly I don't recall being in it. I know all the times on this route so very surprised I was in it. I already sent in representation requesting maintenance records and calibration record etc as I was positive that I never entered the bus lane at that time. I have attached the letters so far. Do I have a leg to stand on? Anything I can do?

Thanks in advanced X

The PCN states they will send an Enforcement Notice. The law states "may" Fettered discretion which arguably invalidates the PCN.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1318677 · Replies: 29 · Views: 2,444

Hippocrates
Posted on: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 20:39


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Has the appeal been registered yet? Even their deadline of 3rd October is wrong.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1318674 · Replies: 34 · Views: 2,973

Hippocrates
Posted on: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 19:23


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What about the warning sign near Portsmouth Road by the opticians? How is that these days? And you should mention the ramping of the legends on the road at the start of the bus lane making it difficult to read.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1317995 · Replies: 6 · Views: 750

Hippocrates
Posted on: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 - 18:07


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Reoffered discount depends on what the reps. say and their NOR, of course.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1279296 · Replies: 15 · Views: 2,219

Hippocrates
Posted on: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 - 18:05


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His funeral is on 27th.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1279293 · Replies: 7 · Views: 2,277

Hippocrates
Posted on: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 - 17:32


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As usual, please post the PCN with personal details redacted.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1279277 · Replies: 2 · Views: 404

Hippocrates
Posted on: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 - 17:29


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In law, they do not have to reoffer the discount. Mr M will know if they do or their website. You stopped for about 5 seconds, which involved a pedestrian crossing in front of you, then moved again and stopped for about 3 seconds.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1279275 · Replies: 15 · Views: 2,219

Hippocrates
Posted on: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 - 21:27


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Thanks. When I get a minute, I will post up details of his cases won.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1274451 · Replies: 7 · Views: 2,277

Hippocrates
Posted on: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 - 16:46


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I am very sorry to report that my friend and colleague, Nigel Wise, passed away this last Tuesday quite suddenly and unexpectedly.

Nigel was not a member of this forum but he did help many through his knowledge and expertise to do with camera certification, and personally represented several members at the former PATAS. Indeed, I witnessed one of his performances which was inspiring. His track-record is second to none in this regard.

Nigel was responsible for Richmond having to reimburse motorists over their camera certification debacle some years back and more lately had been working tirelessly to expose the shenanigans between APCOA and Gloucestershire. He was a well-rounded and knowledgeable campaigner and representative.

I shall miss Nigel's eccentricity and his generosity. He leaves a dear wife, who is coping as well with the shock as any in the same situation. If members wish to pass on any best wishes etc I am happy to do so via my private e-mail account. Or, simply respond on this thread.

God bless you, Nigel, and may you rest in peace.

  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1274167 · Replies: 7 · Views: 2,277

Hippocrates
Posted on: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 - 22:12


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QUOTE (victim77 @ Thu, 30 Mar 2017 - 22:08) *
hi everyone, just been looking at this case because i have one similar to it, and it has made me realise that if so many people have been allegedly committing a contravention here, it must be because the signs are inadequate?
im dealing with my own situation regarding pedestrian zone c, and this is in 2017 lol.
can the adjudicators not tell newham council to sort out their signs?

Please start your own thread.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1273890 · Replies: 47 · Views: 10,038

Hippocrates
Posted on: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 - 22:11


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It also fails another regulation re the form and manner of making an appeal.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1273889 · Replies: 53 · Views: 7,191

Hippocrates
Posted on: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 - 21:58


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I say he is wrong. One council state in their NORs that an appeal may be made even if the re-offered discount is paid.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=110414&hl=
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1273881 · Replies: 4 · Views: 624

Hippocrates
Posted on: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 - 21:55


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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 30 Mar 2017 - 21:09) *
14 seconds is NOT considered de minimis, unfortunately. Five seconds or less is. OP, you need something else. Was your exit stopped by stationary or moving vehicles ?

By one adjudicator, perhaps. biggrin.gif If you are before Ms Brennan or Mr Chan, forget it. I have a thread re this.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1273875 · Replies: 11 · Views: 969

Hippocrates
Posted on: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 23:02


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QUOTE (Vizard @ Mon, 20 Mar 2017 - 08:42) *
QUOTE (astralite @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 20:50) *
The options:

a) pay at the discount today
b) make representations today and if unsuccessful pay then at the discount if offered, or
c) if unsuccessful take the matter to adjudication

Representations – possible approach:

I stayed overnight at the hotel in Warwick Park. I parked my car in the private car park of the church hall immediately next to the hotel. I did not move the car first thing the next morning as intended because the hotel safe in which my keys had been put for safekeeping was faulty and I was unable to retrieve my keys until about 9.50am. At 10am I moved my car to a parking bay on Warwick Road about 150 -200 yards on the right from the hotel. I returned to the car at [xxx time] to find a penalty charge notice timed at 11.19am. This alleges that my car had been parked at 9.04am and had been moved and returned to the same parking place. I have taken note of two documents supplied by the Council apparently relating to the observation of my car and its tyre ‘valve positions’. I wish to make it clear that my car was not parked as alleged at 9.04am and that once I had parked the car at 10am it was not moved until I returned at [time}. I did not need to use the car during that time as I was [at the hotel, attending an appointment locally, dealing with my e-mails, or whatever -[reference anything you might have which supports any aspect of your account from 8am onwards, e.g. I can supply a receipt for …. ]

Please note that I consider that the PCN fails to comply with Regulation 3(2) b (ii ) of ‘The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007’ which states:

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The word “must” makes it clear that the council cannot omit this statement from the PCN. In doing so they fail to comply with a requirement of the regulations, this is a procedural impropriety.
An adjudicator finding it so MUST cancel the PCN.

It also fails Regulation 8(1)(b)
Penalty charge notices
8.—(1) In these Regulations a “penalty charge notice” means a notice which—
(a) was served in accordance with regulation 9 or 10 in relation to a parking contravention; and
(b) complies with the requirements of the Schedule which apply to it as well as those of regulation 3 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations which so apply.
Therefore, it is not a PCN.

For the reasons given I request that you cancel the PCN.


Thanks Astralite.

I have obviously missed the discount deadline now, so I will fight on.


Exactly. Let's see what the NtO has in store.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1271088 · Replies: 52 · Views: 14,283

Hippocrates
Posted on: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 22:50


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QUOTE (5rivers79 @ Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 18:54) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 21 Feb 2017 - 14:19) *
QUOTE (mashkiach @ Tue, 21 Feb 2017 - 13:59) *
QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Mon, 20 Feb 2017 - 22:23) *
QUOTE
Don't forget that this does not change deadline for payment. If successful you will be refunded. If not, nothing lost.

No. Inform the council by e-mail you have applied for a review and ask them to place the issue of a charge certificate on hold pending the next decision.
Good luck, guys. biggrin.gif

Does a review request legally extend the time? I think we can argue so.


TBH I agree that we can argue.
But suggesting taking the course of action that needs no argument.

Would do no harm when paying, to email TPT and Council stating paid as per original adjudication decision but only to safeguard deadlines pending review decision.
Just in case some dafty wants to argue paid so case closed.

Just to update you guys. Received the reply for the review and it was decided that the charge stands. The new adjudicator didnt agree with the review sad.gif


Sorry to hear that. Details please.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1271084 · Replies: 144 · Views: 19,695

Hippocrates
Posted on: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 - 18:47


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Please show the whole PCN.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1270139 · Replies: 27 · Views: 3,448

Hippocrates
Posted on: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 - 18:43


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So, where in the process are we exactly?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1270138 · Replies: 21 · Views: 3,076

Hippocrates
Posted on: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 20:29


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QUOTE (Vizard @ Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 16:31) *
(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The word must makes it clear that the council cannot omit this statement from the PCN. In doing so they fail to comply with a requirement of the regulations, this is a procedural impropriety.
An adjudicator finding it so MUST cancel the PCN


Thank you.

Everyone agree with this? The adjudicator must cancel the ticket?


Yes, I do. But I am not everyone! Royal Tunbridge Wells. Homeopathic Hospital for drafter of PCN.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1269650 · Replies: 52 · Views: 14,283

Hippocrates
Posted on: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 - 18:21


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The PCN conflates the two 28 days periods and misstates 4(8)(iv):

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1268116 · Replies: 37 · Views: 3,877

Hippocrates
Posted on: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 - 20:20


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Show all PCN. Please.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1267683 · Replies: 6 · Views: 564

Hippocrates
Posted on: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 - 20:16


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Page missing of NOR. Similarly PCN.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1267681 · Replies: 9 · Views: 2,024

Hippocrates
Posted on: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 22:08


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I cannot rotate the PCN images et al. But, how does this PCN act as a NtO?

When is the Tribunal going to give a proper and just decision on this nonsense which, as I all know, emanates from the Secretary of State's flawed Guidance?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1267378 · Replies: 21 · Views: 2,988

Hippocrates
Posted on: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 20:57


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Others may say 3 days! They are updating the old PATAS Guidance Manual. Personally, if an appellant has access to his online appeal, this argument would not hold water any more unless what they send by hard copy is substantially different from what they file online.

I started a thread on this 3/4 years ago. Total disparity.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1267357 · Replies: 248 · Views: 153,350

Hippocrates
Posted on: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 20:51


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QUOTE (Vizard @ Mon, 6 Mar 2017 - 16:34) *
But I didn't.

Warwick Park, Tunbridge wells. I was parked somewhere else entirely at the time my vehicle was first "observed". I may or may not be able to prove that.

However they appear to be claiming I left a space and returned to it, as illustrated by my tyre valve positions, which had moved. I have no idea how they came to this conclusion, but they have. I absolutely did not leave and return to the space.

Ticket Front

Ticket rear

Blurb ref valve positions

Diagram of valve positions

Any advice appreciated please.

I first appealed saying that I hadn't returned to the same bay within too short a time. They replied with a photo of the parking restriction plate Plate

and the following comment:



Dear

Penalty Charge Notice


Thank you for writing to us. We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

There is a sign where you parked which says that, after leaving, you must not return within a certain length of time to the bay, or bays, covered by the sign. You were issued a PCN for returning too soon. Please see the photo below.

The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) recorded your tyre-valve positions and the time at 09:04; the CEO returned at 11:19, when the period you were allowed to park for had run out, and re-checked your tyre-valve positions, they had changed, meaning that your vehicle had left, but had returned within the four hour restriction.

We have liaised with the Enforcement Supervisor who has investigated your case and is satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online at www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn by following the payment links.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card.
• by post Please make your cheque or postal order payable to 'Tunbridge Wells Borough Council', write your PCN number (see above) on the back, then send it to Parking Services. Please do not send cash through the post.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card, cheque, cash or postal order.

Yours sincerely



So I replied saying, "presumably take a photo at the start and end of the observation period then, may I see them please?

They replied.

Dear

Penalty Charge Notice


Thank you for writing to us.

We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

Please be advised that we do not take photographs of vehicle tyres. However, the Civil Enforcement Officer has made a note of the valve positions when the vehicle was first observed and then again when they returned to that area. When a vehicle is first observed in a time waiting bay, the vehicle details are entered onto a handheld computer. This would include the valve positions. When the CEO returns to that area after the time waiting period is up, they would again enter the details of the vehicles parked along with the valve positions. If there was a change in the valve positions then the handheld would automatically issue a ticket.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online is the fastest method www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn follow online instructions.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card, clearly stating your penalty charge notice number and your vehicle registration.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card, cheque, cash or postal order. (Only open 9-5 Monday to Friday, excluding public holidays.)




I said, okay please send me a time stamped record of the valve positions and they replied:

Penalty Charge Notice (parking ticket) number: k

Thank you for writing to us again.

We have carefully reconsidered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

Please see below for details.

The first log is timed at 09:04 the Penalty was not issued until 11:19. The restriction states 'parking 2 hours no return within 4 hours' had you not have left (as our records show) you would have needed to vacate the bay by 11:04 as the maximum period is 2 hours.




Along with the two images I posted.


Procedural improprieties: within adds an extra day and the other issue fetters their discretion. So, thus far, three procedural improprieties including the missing Regulation 3(2)(b)(ii).
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1267353 · Replies: 52 · Views: 14,283

Hippocrates
Posted on: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 20:36


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QUOTE (Vizard @ Thu, 9 Mar 2017 - 13:34) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 8 Mar 2017 - 17:29) *
So
In a nutshell.
You stayed in the hotel and parked in an adjacent car park (though possibly could have fallen foul of the owners of that car park)
At the time the vehicle was first observed, you were still trying to check out but your keys (car keys?) locked in the safe.
Hotel will attest to that.
Following check out (around 9.30?) you moved the vehicle ?
To where ?
And if not in the parking place where the PCN was served, when did you park ?

The problem is proving against a machine that automatically issues PCNs if certain conditions are input and consideration that seems to be against "the machine is never wrong" but without thought of GIGO rule (garbage in, garbage out)

To win, you will be battling against the authority saying their CEO and machine cannot make mistakes.
But have some evidence that you would not have been parked earlier then 9.30 unless you parked there overnight.
If overnight, why would anyone park 200 metres from their hotel ?
If overnight, what time was the first patrol?
Enforcement starts at 8am so patrol time sweeps may be critical.
Your credibility will be key at adjudication.


I agree, I don't fancy my chances when it's my word with some degree of support against the machine.

But is this an opportunity (thank you Astralite)?

Where is Regulation 3(2)b(ii) on the PCN?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

If its not there the PCN is invalid and unenforceable.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

By corollary, it fails Regulation 8(1)(b)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/8/made

Therefore, it is not a PCN.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1267347 · Replies: 52 · Views: 14,283

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