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dvla clamps
markadams
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 05:56
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I am a car trader, i have motor trade insurance, and all vehicles are purchased via main agents, put `in trade` using the yellow slip, and stay in my custody or control until sold.
Being `in trade` as i recall means i dont have to tax insure the car etc. If the car needs moving, or for demonstration i use trade plates.

I can only keep 7 cars at home so i use a couple of private parking areas. I have a friend with a flat in each so use the many many available parking spaces as i dont have premises. Private car par, private land.

So i went to my cars yesterday and the cars had been clamped, clearly reported to dvla. Maybe dvla hadnt checked they were in trade and it stated they had been reported to dvla and clamped. The company that clamped them i believe is NSL and they have a compound in west bromwich.

A quick look on the gov.uk website tells me these cars need to be sorned, but how can i take a sorned car onto the road for a text drive? Or for an mot?

So this morning i need to make some calls and am asking your incredible brains where i stand with this.

i have read this....

https://www.gov.uk/sorn-statutory-off-road-...n/motor-traders

It doesnt make good reading especially as i dont have `business premises` which actually means i cant park them at home without SORN, and if i do and their on a test drive im then also comitting anoffence


This post has been edited by markadams: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 06:17
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Slatz
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 08:34
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QUOTE (markadams @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 08:24) *
So why would my house not be the same??


It may well be.

Especially if it is a new build.

Trading is often excluded in modern leases and covenants.
.
Perhaps you should check
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TonyS
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 08:46
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QUOTE (markadams @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:39) *
so if you lived in a house, and your girlfriend had a place with space, and you parked there, whats the problem...also not ALL traders have a forecourt and showroom.

I don't think you ever mentioned whether the spaces you use are dedicated to your use, or whether you just have a permit to use any space that happens to be free at the time.
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markadams
post Wed, 28 Aug 2019 - 11:45
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Ok so the fines have arrived for the cars that were not clamped but reported for no tax.

vehicle 1 bought by me 10.6.19 seen 17/7/19 asking for £105 = £300 a year tax
vehicle 2 bought by me 10.6.19 seen 17.7.19 asking for £49 = £145 A YEAR TAX
vehicle 3 bought by me 6.6.19 seen 17.7.19 asking for £60 = "235 a year tax
vehicle 4 bought by me 28.5.19 seen 17.7.19 asking for £46 = "125 a year tax

Can anyone explain the variation reasons, all vehicles seen on same day, all vehicles are `in trade` although we all now know on 17/7/19 they were seen on the public highway albeit a car park matters not i am still guilty of the offence.

This post has been edited by markadams: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 - 11:58
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The Rookie
post Wed, 28 Aug 2019 - 11:47
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Different CO2 ratings? Tax amount being based on CO2 and all that.


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markadams
post Wed, 28 Aug 2019 - 12:03
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 28 Aug 2019 - 12:47) *
Different CO2 ratings? Tax amount being based on CO2 and all that.


ive added the annual tax and it doesnt add up, i would have expected x months times ££ plus an admin fee, but that doesnt stack up either, and the most bizarre thing is the ones that were clamped dvla have confirmed they have no interest in the back tax and have not chased, funny old game
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markadams
post Wed, 28 Aug 2019 - 12:22
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I have contacted dvla, they state the number i called is for payment only, i said im asking how the figure was added up, they said i need to write in, write i said !! this is 2019, and it says ive got till 9/9 which is not enought time to turnaround a letter, he said well ive got 2 choices pay it or go to court.....
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 28 Aug 2019 - 12:29
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He is right - its their offer and their timescales. Take it or leave itl.
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markadams
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 12:37
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Ok
I have recieved as you know penalties for the vehicles that were not clamped but untaxed...on a public road...as we well know.

They were marked as in trade so did not need to be taxed but we also know that on the dates of the offences they were deemed to be on the public highway.

So the offence date was 17.7.19 , after that date they were taxed and there are no concerns, prior to that date they were `in trade` AND DID NOT NEED TO BE TAXED (unless seen on a public highway)

The dvla have stated that for example with one car the fine is £46 , £16 back tax which is £125/12 X 1.5 PLUS £30 penalty making the $46.
No arguments there.

However one vehicle they want 3 months back tax, even though it was in trade, albeit seen on the highwway on 17.7.19 BUT AT NO OTHER TIME.

So have they the right to request (like they would with a normal punter) back tax back to the time it was taxed when it was in trade and did not need to be taxed (when not on a public highway)

Any law on this as i do not think iot is fair to pay 3 months back tax when they were in trade and not even in that car park for the duration so i should not pay?#

What do you guys think on this
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 12:44
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Is it an offer to avoid prosecution? If so its their offer to make, is my understanding.
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localdriver
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 12:50
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The exemption for vehicle licensing does not apply to vehicles 'in trade'. It is only if the vehicle is kept by a motor trader or vehicle tester at business premises.
The additional liability for a keeper of an unlicensed vehicle is in s.30, Vehicles Excise & Registration Act 1994.

This post has been edited by localdriver: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 12:53
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markadams
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 13:33
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 13:44) *
Is it an offer to avoid prosecution? If so its their offer to make, is my understanding.


But if it is not lawful i can attend court. My point of the post is to accertain if it is indeed lawful

QUOTE (localdriver @ Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 13:50) *
The exemption for vehicle licensing does not apply to vehicles 'in trade'. It is only if the vehicle is kept by a motor trader or vehicle tester at business premises.
The additional liability for a keeper of an unlicensed vehicle is in s.30, Vehicles Excise & Registration Act 1994.



Excuse me if i havent quite followed. On 17.7.19 and from the day i bought the car the car was in trade and therefore not needed to be licenced.......( on a motor traders premises), however on 17.7.19 it wasnt on a motor traders premises and was fined (for want of a better word) for that....

But they are asking for 3 months back tax when it was `in trade` and there is NO EVIDENCE that the vehicle was on the road for all or any of that period. The vehicle therefore could well have been at a motor traders premises

So i am asking is there a law, i can read, that shows they can ask either me or general public to pay the back tax.

Are you following me now?
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localdriver
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 13:56
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There are only three exemptions for the requirement for a vehicle to be licensed, s. 29, (2A),(2B) and (2C), Vehicles Excise and Registration Act 1994. None of which apply to a vehicle 'in trade'.

The keeper of an unlicensed vehicle commits the offence (off road or on road) for the period they are the keeper - the vehicle is required (unless exempt) to be licensed for that period, which is what they are claiming.

This post has been edited by localdriver: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 13:58
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 14:44
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You didnt answer the question, OP
Are they offering you a settlement to avoid prosecution? Yes or No
If Yes, then my understanding is that they are entitled to make a calcualtion on what is reaosnable to request, adn your choice to accept the offer or not. If you dont, youre not challenging their offer in court, youre challenging their right to anything at all - and so far you seem to accept you dont have a defencet o that. Youre arguing how much you should be fined for it, instead.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 15:08
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If their offer is in place of prosecution I don't think the DVLA will enter into protracted correspondence with you regarding the amount they are requesting. You either accept their calculation or take the matters to court. Even if someone on here tells you they are wrong and you let them know I believe they will simply discontinue correspondence and begin court proceedings.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 15:41
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If the DVLA institute court proceedings, what is the likely outcome? Is that outcome better or worse for the OP than accepting the offer?


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markadams
post Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 07:52
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QUOTE (localdriver @ Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 14:56) *
There are only three exemptions for the requirement for a vehicle to be licensed, s. 29, (2A),(2B) and (2C), Vehicles Excise and Registration Act 1994. None of which apply to a vehicle 'in trade'.

The keeper of an unlicensed vehicle commits the offence (off road or on road) for the period they are the keeper - the vehicle is required (unless exempt) to be licensed for that period, which is what they are claiming.


But we know this. we know the vehicle does not need to be licenced if held a a motor traders premieses.... which it wasnt in July (becuase the offence was in July) and this must be the case becuase all the other offences when i purchased in july are for 1 month only, but they are asking for 2 months duty, but it was legally kept during month 1 so im not sure of the legalities, ive check section 29 and i think i may have a case at court?

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 16:41) *
If the DVLA institute court proceedings, what is the likely outcome? Is that outcome better or worse for the OP than accepting the offer?


Guilty or non guilty is the likely outcome

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 15:44) *
You didnt answer the question, OP
Are they offering you a settlement to avoid prosecution? Yes or No
If Yes, then my understanding is that they are entitled to make a calcualtion on what is reaosnable to request, adn your choice to accept the offer or not. If you dont, youre not challenging their offer in court, youre challenging their right to anything at all - and so far you seem to accept you dont have a defencet o that. Youre arguing how much you should be fined for it, instead.


No, they are offering a settlement to avoid court not avoid prosecution. If their calculations are incorrect and they have asked for the wrong amount they cannot convict...

If it helps i have no qualms about attending court i have gone not guilty 3 times in the past and won 2 cases.

Again you havent listened or read the thread, the amount the ask for IS vel duty/12 multiplied by months owing times 1.5 plus £30 so the calculation has to be wrongUNLESS they can ask for back duty WHEN A CAR IS IN TRADE with the yellow slip sent off, i am concerned of a couple of replies on here seem a little bit facebook style which isnt good considering the great knowldeg of localdriver or the chap from my town i forget his name
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The Rookie
post Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 07:55
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A court will fine you what a court will fine you! The sentencing guidelines suggest to me they will impose a Band A fine for each offence, that is 50% of your relevant weekly income plus costs and a surcharge of 10% of the fines (£32 minimum).

Page 135, art 2 first item. Cap is 5 times the annual duty or £1000 whichever is the greater.
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-con...5-MCSG-pdf1.pdf

Accepting DVLA's offers is likely to be cheaper, How they've worked it out is up to them, you accept or they take it to court.


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MyronAub
post Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 08:20
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QUOTE (markadams @ Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 12:37) *
AND DID NOT NEED TO BE TAXED (unless seen on a public highway)

It's nothing to do with being "seen", it's a simple matter of fact; was the vehicle kept at business premises for the entire first month?

QUOTE (markadams @ Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 13:33) *
The vehicle therefore could well have been at a motor traders premises

Yes, it "could" but was it?

QUOTE (markadams @ Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 07:52) *
it was legally kept during month 1 so im not sure of the legalities,

If this is true and you can convince the court then you may be found not guilty of the offence relating to that particular vehicle. However that doesn't help with the other vehicles where you'll be found guilty of the offences and, as southpaw alluded to, you need to ask yourself whether the court is likely to fine you more or less than the DVLA settlement figure...

QUOTE (markadams @ Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 07:52) *
If their calculations are incorrect and they have asked for the wrong amount they cannot convict...

I suspect you are fundamentally mistaken. There is no "correct" amount, you are being offered a settlement in lieu of court proceedings, you can either accept or not, the choice is yours. At court you will be charged with vehicle offences and any previous DVLA "fine/settlement" calculation will be immaterial, it will be the court that decides the amount, not the DVLA.

In a nutshell, at court you will asked to plead guilty or not guilty to being the keeper of an unlicensed vehicle. Are you thinking of pleading not guilty on the basis that the DVLA "wrongly calculated" the fine amount?!? Can you see the absurdity of going down that route?
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markadams
post Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 08:56
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 08:55) *
A court will fine you what a court will fine you! The sentencing guidelines suggest to me they will impose a Band A fine for each offence, that is 50% of your relevant weekly income plus costs and a surcharge of 10% of the fines (£32 minimum).

Page 135, art 2 first item. Cap is 5 times the annual duty or £1000 whichever is the greater.
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-con...5-MCSG-pdf1.pdf

Accepting DVLA's offers is likely to be cheaper, How they've worked it out is up to them, you accept or they take it to court.


Yes correct, and its not just up to them what they do, they have explained how they have worked it out, if its been worked out wrongly and is unlawful then the prosecution must fail, come on rookie you are very very smart and must know this.

What i am trying to work out is IS IT LAWFUL to request back duty for a car that was in trade.

If you bought a car in April and got caught in July you would owe 4 months. PERIOD. No getting out of it.

But mine was in trade and was not seen on a public highway in june so i feel they would be unlawful requesting, according to their figures, back duty for june.

See what i mean?

This post has been edited by markadams: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 08:58
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localdriver
post Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 09:13
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The fact that the vehicles were 'in trade' does not mean they are exempt, they would still need to be licensed, wherever they are - on road or off road, seen or unseen, unless exempt. The keeper commits the offence of using or keeping an unlicensed vehicle, again wherever they are - on road or off road, seen or unseen, unless exempt. The DVLA claim is in response to the missing Vehicle Excise Duty for the period the vehicle was unlicensed and you were the keeper. If you can prove one of the three exemptions apply, you would not be liable.

This post has been edited by localdriver: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 11:48
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