PCN For Contravention of "No Right Turn" Options

[Awake87]

Hi all,

This is my first post here and not entirely sure of the format but from reading other posts it seems the best thing is to upload scans of the material received.

In summary, on 10/07/19 I received a PCN from Havering borough council for a "No right turn" contravention that they allege took place on 01/07/19, the date of the notice is 09/07/19.

The photos available on their website are linked below, there is no video available on their site, only two images and a third box which doesn't display anything.

I would be very grateful if anyone can give me any pointers as to whether there is any ground I can challenge this on based on your experience?

Please let me know if any other info is required. Thank you very much in advance.

PCN notice -

PCN 1/3
PCN 2/3
PCN 3/3

Evidence from Havering's website -

Evidence 1
Evidence 2
Evidence 3

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

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[cp8759]

Havering moving traffic PCNs are all flawed, as they mis-state the deadlines both for submitting representations, and for when the council may issue a Charge Certificate.

[Awake87]

Thanks so much for your reply which has given me some hope of beating it. I have reviewed the PCN for all the dates and their usage of "may" instead of "will" based on some reading i have done on this forum however I can't spot any flaws on their part. Are you able to point out any?

[Neil B]

Look at the other current Havering threads here.
We'll explain later.

[Awake87]

Ok will do, thank you.

[Awake87]

Found a few threads re the same junction but most were appealed on technicalities of the serving/notice or 14/21 days confusion which my letter doesn't have, however I did find this which looks pretty sound to me as my PCN does not state"performing a prohibited turn". Am I interpreting this correctly?

Mr Mcmahon attended today. He appeals as he states that there was no sign in the vicinity to indicate that moving traffic contraventions would be enforced by camera. He states that there was a flimsy and inadequate sign below the no right turn sign. The appellant provides a photograph taken on about 10th February.

The local authority states that it is prohibited to turn right from Tangent Link into Harold Hill. The London Borough of Havering has not provided any Traffic Management Order. In the absence of this evidence I cannot be satisfied that right turns are prohibited.

I allow this appeal.


this may help you

Mr Grayson has attended in person.

This PCN was issued for an alleged Code 50 contravention which is "performing a prohibited turn". That turn may be a no left turn, a no right turn or no U-turn. The PCN in this case does not correctly cite the alleged contravention. It states simply "No right turn". The wording "performing a prohibited turn" must be included and followed with the words "No right turn" which then convey to the motorist the nature of the alleged prohibited turn. It follows that the PCN was defective.

[PASTMYBEST]

The PCN in the section making representations states that you have 28 days from date of notice this is wrong it is 28 days beginning with date of service

They make the same mistake with regards to issuing a CC No right turn is a maybe. A pcn does not have to slavishly follow the words of the regulations but it must convey the meaning so 50/50 on that

I am in the middle of a draft for another thread on these points amongst others and will copy you when finished some time tomorrow

[Awake87]

Thanks so much for your fast reply on this. I will wait to see the draft tomorrow. Really do appreciate your help.

[cp8759]

I think "no right turn" is good enough to convey the meaning, after all you're in no real doubt about what the council are accusing you of.

[Awake87]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any further advice on whether I can challenge my PCN please? This would be especially helpful now because today I received my second PCN for the exact same thing ( I visited B&Q twice in that week for supplies and made the same turn twice because it seemed absurd to not be able to turn right).

Any help would be gratefully appreciated
Thanks

[Incandescent]

OP, I have to say that I think you are being a wee bit disingenuous with your description of the location. GSV shows that B&Q is only one of a huge number of retail and car dealerships in a vast retail area that will obviously be very busy with traffic. Clearly this was realised and when the roads were planned, certain movements were decided to be banned to better manage the traffic flow. Here is what GSV shows as the exit from B&Q: -

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5957409,0...33;8i6656?hl=en

As well as the exit being built with a leftward bias there are two blue "Left Only" arrows, plus a traffic sign for "No Right Turn". It is a plain as a pikestaff to me at least, that one must turn left on exit. Just yards away there is then a roundabout where one can change direction and proceed to the exit of the retail park. However, as the last GSV view was 2008, maybe it is all different now, but I suspect not.

Based on the above, I think only a "technical" appeal holds water, as outlined by CP8759, PMB, and Neil B. For this to succeed, it would invariably be necessary to forgoe the discount and take the council to London Tribunals. This is because appeals based on PCN content are inevitably batted away by councils who consider themselves 110% perfect in every way.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 21:32

[Neil B]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any further advice on whether I can challenge my PCN please? This would be especially helpful now because today I received my second PCN for the exact same thing ( I visited B&Q twice in that week for supplies and made the same turn twice because it seemed absurd to not be able to turn right).

Any help would be gratefully appreciated
Thanks

Yes but we can't help everyone at once.
We'll get to you.

[Awake87]

Thanks Neil. Apologies for chasing. I'll sit tight and wait my turn. Genuinely appreciate any help if you can.

[cp8759]

Just so you know representations must be received by the council no later than 7 August. As Neil says, we will get to you.

In the meantime upload the other PCN so we can confirm it has the same flaw.

[Neil B]

I am in the middle of a draft for another thread on these points amongst others and will copy you when finished some time tomorrow

Just to let you know, PMB has not forgotten either but is not able to respond right now.

[Awake87]

Thanks guys. Sorry been away with work and only just been able to scan the other letter in. Please find links below.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-MPndnZwj...7Hgn78VDHDCOJVQ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-N4YTlAVB...NXfc_GDfMaVDmr_
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-Po8x8dNP...DZ8cQHraui3WB98

Very grateful for whatever guidance you can provide.

[cp8759]

Bump in a week or so if PMB hasn't replied by then.

[Awake87]

Thanks. Given I'd have to forgo the discount period in order to make a challenge, are you able to give any indication (with no guarantee of course) on my likelihood of success?

Just want to weigh up my chances to see if it is better to fight it or less risky to just pay now.

[PASTMYBEST]

Thanks. Given I'd have to forgo the discount period in order to make a challenge, are you able to give any indication (with no guarantee of course) on my likelihood of success?

Just want to weigh up my chances to see if it is better to fight it or less risky to just pay now.

you always have to risk the full amount in order to challenge . The council are never obliged to re offer the discount but given the error in the date for representations and the CC and the numerous cases Havering have lost because of the faulty PCN (although slightly different faults this one is more blatant) I would rate your chances as very high


I am back up to speed now (mostly) and will be finishing of this appeal tomorrow

[Awake87]

Ok thank you, that's really helpful. I will proceed to challenge it then and will await your thoughts. Many thanks for your time.