PCN, Newham Council PCN Options

[ds954]

Hi guys,

New to the forums but have been an active reader for years, so please forgive me if I post in the wrong place or get something wrong!

I received this ticket whilst I stopped on double yellows on a residential street, unfortunately we were loading tables but had to clear items before we could get them out but I was only there for three or four mins before returning to find the attached ticket.


As far as I was aware it was okay for me to stop there to load and I had even left my hazard lights on to show we hadn’t parked ie with any intention of remaining there.

I’m not sure if the missing location would be grounds to appeal or the contravention code?

I’d be so grateful for any advice.

The further pic attached is where I had stopped on the double yellows just outside the white garage if it helps?

https://imgshare.io/image/QRzCZ

Photos attached

https://imgshare.io/image/QR496
https://imgshare.io/image/QR1Ry

This post has been edited by ds954: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 21:22

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[Incandescent]

It's a PCN issued to your car, and the street is given so your suggestion is pretty thin gruel, and why bother with this when you are entitled to the loading exemption. Loading is not just the physical activity of loading into/out of the vehicle, but all the rest, like going to get the goods from premises and carrying them to the vehicle. So you need to submit reps on that basis, with some collateral like photos of the stuff and its bulk and weight. You also need to explain why you didn't park just a few yards away, because the DYLs are very short. Is it because cars were already parked there ? If so you need to say this.


This post has been edited by Incandescent: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 21:36

[ds954]

It's a PCN issued to your car, and the street is given so your suggestion is pretty thin gruel, and why bother with this when you are entitled to the loading exemption. Loading is not just the physical activity of loading into/out of the vehicle, but all the rest, like going to get the goods from premises and carrying them to the vehicle. So you need to submit reps on that basis, with some collateral like photos of the stuff and its bulk and weight. You also need to explain why you didn't park just a few yards away, because the DYLs are very short. Is it because cars were already parked there ? If so you need to say this.

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. My apologies I wasn’t intending to be pretty thin gruel on that point. I just didn’t know if that would support my appeal alongside the contravention code and know people on here are far more knowledgable than I ever will be in this area so wanted to ask and relay my thoughts appropriately.

I didn’t park closer as the address was literally opposite and this was the closest as all the other spaces including permit bays within reasonable distance were taken (the owner had a permit we could have borrowed otherwise) and it’s such a small concealed street I didn’t expect a traffic warden to appear within minutes and only wait a couple of mins before issuing the ticket.

This post has been edited by ds954: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 22:03

[stamfordman]

Post the council's pics. Tables sound fine for the loading exemption as long as getting them out didn't require too long. As observation time only 2 mins you should be OK.

[Neil B]

and hang some garlic cloves from your side mirrors.

but had to clear items before we could get them out

Yeah, um, forget that.

[stamfordman]

Yes indeed, the proviso being this is Newham, which banks PCNs the way vampires bank blood.

[ds954]

Post the council's pics. Tables sound fine for the loading exemption as long as getting them out didn't require too long. As observation time only 2 mins you should be OK.

Thank you. They were two garden tables (iron) and chairs so quite heavy but they were obstructed by items she had in the way so it only took about three or four mins to remove them. I’d estimate about 4mins before we removed them!

I can’t see my hazards on these pics so maybe I didn’t have them on!

https://imgshare.io/image/Q3POP
https://imgshare.io/image/Q38DQ
https://imgshare.io/image/Q3sUO

and hang some garlic cloves from your side mirrors.

😂😂😂😂 I have to laugh or I’d cry!

but had to clear items before we could get them out

Yeah, um, forget that.

Noted, thought it would help them appreciate it wasn’t just getting them out straight away as sadly it wasn’t that simple to get them out from the hallway but I get your point.

[cp8759]

This is what Newham's policy says:

LOADING/UNLOADING
The Traffic Management Orders offer an exemption from parking restrictions for ‘delivery
and collection’ and the ‘loading and unloading’ of goods. All commercial deliveries and
collections (including multi-drop and couriers) are included in the exemption. Builders
dropping off or picking up tools from a site are exempt, but the vehicle must be removed
immediately the loading and unloading has been completed.
Loading/unloading is totally prohibited at bus stops, pedestrian or school crossings and
where a loading restriction is in force i.e. yellow stripes on the kerb (chevrons). A vehicle
may only park on the footway to load/unload if there is no other way the delivery or
collection could be made and if someone is left with the vehicle at all times.

Page 25 of 30

A vehicle may only remain in place for as long as it takes to perform the loading or
unloading operations, generally defined as being the movement of goods to or from the
vehicle, the checking of said goods and the completion of any necessary paperwork. In
such a case it should be shown that it was necessary for the vehicle to be in that place to
load or unload. The purchase of goods is not covered by the exemption, for example
parking in order to go shopping is not covered by the exemption however payment on
collection might be.
Parking while investigating whether or not there are goods to be collected is not covered,
unless the driver can reasonably expect that there are goods there but then finds out that
there are none, e.g. a prior appointment or a regular round, rather than a canvassing
situation.
There is no right to park for the maximum time. In order to qualify for exemption, vehicles
should be parked adjacent to the premises being serviced, although where this is not
possible discretion should be given to allow the vehicle to park in the vicinity of the
premises.
Loading / unloading is generally restricted as follows:–
 In designated parking places – 20 minutes
 On yellow lines – 40 minutes
Any lack of observable activity by the CEOs does not imply that no activity was taking
place and there is no authority for saying that it must be continuous. Newham Council
allows an observation period of 2 minutes to observe if there is any evidence of loading or
delivery activity seen taking place.
However, if the driver is delivering goods to the 20th floor for example, it is likely that there
may be a period in excess of 5-10 minutes where no activity is observed by a CEO. It is
important to understand that this does not mean that we can safely say that no loading or
unloading was taking place. Again, the circumstances have to be taken into account.
There is no requirement for any of the vehicle doors or the boot to be left open to indicate
that loading is taking place.

Also see the the exemption on page 9. Frankly I think if you send pictures of the tables and a short statement signed by her (whoever the "she" you reference might be), Newham will likely cancel at the NtO stage if not at the informal stage.

[ds954]

This is what Newham's policy says:

LOADING/UNLOADING
The Traffic Management Orders offer an exemption from parking restrictions for ‘delivery
and collection’ and the ‘loading and unloading’ of goods. All commercial deliveries and
collections (including multi-drop and couriers) are included in the exemption. Builders
dropping off or picking up tools from a site are exempt, but the vehicle must be removed
immediately the loading and unloading has been completed.
Loading/unloading is totally prohibited at bus stops, pedestrian or school crossings and
where a loading restriction is in force i.e. yellow stripes on the kerb (chevrons). A vehicle
may only park on the footway to load/unload if there is no other way the delivery or
collection could be made and if someone is left with the vehicle at all times.

Page 25 of 30

A vehicle may only remain in place for as long as it takes to perform the loading or
unloading operations, generally defined as being the movement of goods to or from the
vehicle, the checking of said goods and the completion of any necessary paperwork. In
such a case it should be shown that it was necessary for the vehicle to be in that place to
load or unload. The purchase of goods is not covered by the exemption, for example
parking in order to go shopping is not covered by the exemption however payment on
collection might be.
Parking while investigating whether or not there are goods to be collected is not covered,
unless the driver can reasonably expect that there are goods there but then finds out that
there are none, e.g. a prior appointment or a regular round, rather than a canvassing
situation.
There is no right to park for the maximum time. In order to qualify for exemption, vehicles
should be parked adjacent to the premises being serviced, although where this is not
possible discretion should be given to allow the vehicle to park in the vicinity of the
premises.
Loading / unloading is generally restricted as follows:–
 In designated parking places – 20 minutes
 On yellow lines – 40 minutes
Any lack of observable activity by the CEOs does not imply that no activity was taking
place and there is no authority for saying that it must be continuous. Newham Council
allows an observation period of 2 minutes to observe if there is any evidence of loading or
delivery activity seen taking place.
However, if the driver is delivering goods to the 20th floor for example, it is likely that there
may be a period in excess of 5-10 minutes where no activity is observed by a CEO. It is
important to understand that this does not mean that we can safely say that no loading or
unloading was taking place. Again, the circumstances have to be taken into account.
There is no requirement for any of the vehicle doors or the boot to be left open to indicate
that loading is taking place.

Also see the the exemption on page 9. Frankly I think if you send pictures of the tables and a short statement signed by her (whoever the "she" you reference might be), Newham will likely cancel at the NtO stage if not at the informal stage.

Thank you, that’s really helpful.

You guys are great. Thanks so much

[cp8759]

Post a draft of your representation on here before sending it off.

[hcandersen]

Just a couple of questions:

2 garden tables and chairs - all in a Mondeo?

And were your rear seats down and parcel shelf removed in the photos?

And don't focus on your time of 4 minutes because:
a. It's a guesstimate;
b. It's improbable that you could manage the load in one journey, so what difference does it make whether this was your first, second...journey, if you'd not been away from the vehicle for the first load, you would have been for subsequent ones;

And you are not going cap-in-hand to the authority asking for a favour: parking on DYL while engaged in loading is as legal as parking not on yellow lines. The CEO did what they should (by the way, if you park there again you could be done for parking by a dropped footway for which loading is not an exemption!) by issuing a PCN. The reason that the CEO did not know you were parked legally is because you were not there. But so what?

On *** I had arranged with *** to collect some items from ****. I knew the items would fit into my car(if true) and so I parked at the location. I then went straight to collect the items which comprised ******. **** helped me to carry these to the car(if true, and thereby giving extra credence to the issue of weight). We made *** journeys and it was on my first journey that I found the PCN. We carried on for a further *** minutes and then I drove to **** where the items were unloaded.

For your info, here's a photo of the items and here's a statement from ***.

A comprehensive picture which starts before you even parked there.